Djokovic forehand.

[GeoffWilliams]

He places the hitting string bed, facing the back fence, with shoulder loaded, and knees bent, and then rotates the hitting structure, with locked wrist, so that he transmits full wrist potential into the shot contact.

[keifan]

Forward Tilt of Racquet

Both Djokovic and Roddick significantly tilt the tip of the racquet forward (towards the taget) as they bring the racquet back on the forehand side. Djokovic turns the hitting face back while Roddick keeps it facing sideways.
Both eventually end up with the hitting face facing the ground at the end of the backswing as do almost all pros with a moderate to extreme grip. My question is... Do you think this motion (tipping tip of racquet towards the taget) as you take the racquet back would not advisable for the average club player? If so, I assume it is because it takes away a little more time which can be detrimental when trying to hit a ball coming at you with a lot of pace.

[GeoffWilliams]

Inversion of the frame edge, is, instead of the top of the frame facing the sky, it's facing the ground, with the bed facing the rear fence. Does it cost more time? Can the club player get away with it? Club players have greater problems than inversion. They can't serve/return/volley/move/hit oh/ well enough for it to matter, to anyone but people in the club they play at.

[stotty]

My question is... Do you think this motion (tipping tip of racquet towards the taget) as you take the racquet back would not advisable for the average club player? If so, I assume it is because it takes away a little more time which can be detrimental when trying to hit a ball coming at you with a lot of pace.

Yes, talented kids can learn to do it. I have a kid who plays to a good standard and does it. It's not advisable but if the technique naturally develops in a kid, let it be.

[worldsbestcoach]

Nole's topspin forehand

Novak Djokovic has improved his topsin forehand some. He used to make many unforced errors with it, but he does not make as many now. Now, also, he often flattens out the trajectory more, like a line drive, similar to the way Gilles Simon does when Simon is playing well. Novak used to lag his racket face at contact point too much, too frequently, so that his forehand shots down the line would often be late and drift wide. That does not happen nearly as much for Nole anymore.

If you look at my posts, you will see my description of & the holes in a "backwards-emphasis topspin forehand." Nole and even other of today's greats usually have a touch of that backwards emphasis in their forehands. That is why their good forehands are not even greater. Novak and other pro players go through streaks of good forehands, and bad streaks, also. I believe it is because they have been coached kinda wrong, but they are so fit & strong, and have worked & practiced so hard . . that the forehand cycles between good times and bad.

If the world of tennis coaching understood mechanics better, then the pros would better understand what is happening to their games. Yes, both Djokovic & Roddick have a touch of that backwards emphasis .which holds them back from becoming even greater.

Novak sometimes (only sometimes) gets his racket back too early . .so that his forehand is not continuous, and so that (only sometimes) he does not track the ball well with his strings. Novak could hit even harder and more consistently if he would tighten up his backswing some. And as I say, he used to flash his racket over his shoulder so fast that the racket tip would lag behind the butt of the racket too much at contact, so that the shot would drift wide. Such a mistake is common in players who finish over their shoulders so fast that they do not worry enough about impact point with strings on ball. (For instance, the same thing happens when John Isner is hitting so many of his reverse court forehands wide.) But that does not happen to Nole as much as it used to.

[worldsbestcoach]

pros and pupils are all human . bodies are the same

In the discussion about Djokovic's forehand, there was discussion about "talent." It is a fuzzy concept, and people usually use circular reasoning about talent as they judge who has it, and who does not.

Pros and everyday pupils can be taught to do the same things on their forehands. The presumptions about who has talent, and who does not, are often wrong. Often, the pupil has more talent than the coach realizes. The problem often is not with the pupil, but with the coach. The best teachers in the world realize that if the pupil is motivated, but does not succeed, then it is the fault of the teacher.

High school baseball players should learn the same baseball swing as major leaguers try to use. Junior golfers should try to use the same basic golf swing as the tournament pros try to use. Same goes for tennis. There are some things about Djokovic's and Roddick's forehands that tennis pupils should not try to do, because those pros' forehands are far from perfect.

[GeoffWilliams]

Wow, some really good replies here. I am trying to learn the nole fh, and I am often late wide on returns, and groundies, as it does take more time to invert, face the back fence, and then revert the top edge on snap back towards the rear end! I have found, that if I line up the whole face on line with the incoming ball trajectory, rather than going high with it, the loop foward is flatter and faster.

[worldsbestcoach]

yes

yes, Nole should tighten up his backswing. Then he would hit his forehand even harder, with fewer mistakes. You will notice that he sometimes has trouble with the midcourt or short balls that come to him, because he emphasizes too much backwards motion in his forehand stroke. For the same reason, Nole sometimes has difficulty with low balls, and with hard-hit balls right at him.

Nole like so many pros' forehands, is locked into an unconscious fight between the backwards-emphasis topspin forehand that it taught so much today, and a more natural, more efficient forehand that he fortuitously uses kinda by accident sometimes. Nole gets in trouble: When he does not track the ball well with his strings; When he takes the racket back, away from tracking the ball, too early (thus trying to control the racket with one hand with his muscles tiightening up, and having to start up the racket movement again); When he gets his shoulders too sideways sometimes & has to fight against his body during the foreward swing; When he takes his racket too far back so that he cannot flash his racket forward to contact point with the ball in timely fashion.

Novak Djokovic has a great forehand, but I am sure that in an honest, private conversation, he would admit that somehow he thinks his forehand could be even better.

[keifan]

Thanks for all the great replies. Seems to me that the difference is whether you prefer to get the racquet head back by 1) relying more on getting your right elbow further back/behind you or 2) allowing your right forearm to swivel back while keeping your elbow relatively fixed in position. Looking at slow mo videos, some do it (Roddick, Djokovic, Fish, Federer, Berdych, etc) and some don't (Nadal, Soderling, Blake, Ljubicic, etc.). Obviously, it must be more of a personal preference thing and so I will just do what feels more natural (in between) to me. Thanks again.

[GeoffWilliams]

I notice on my own fh, when I reach back further, inverted still, and arm bar backwards, without a bent elbow, that my fh picks up way more power vs. a bent elbow, shorter coil back, but only if you have time to do it! It's blazing power with that much backwards coil, compared to shorter coils. Look at Soderling's way back coil, with his arm bar always reaching back all the way, and Delpo as well, with his super high take back, and huge coil.

[worldsbestcoach]

sidespin

Soderling gets away with his big backswing because he hits almost all of his topspin grroundstrokes (forehand and backhand) with sidespin. Sometimes, when you try for sidespin, the ball actually has tremendous topspin also. Nadal also hits most of his forehands with sidespin. That is why his forehands have such hook and dip on them. Federer attempts a lot of sidespin forehands, especially on his magnificent cross court angled passing shots.

Players who go for the sidespin can get away with and/or use bigger backswings, with even straight arms.

Yes, forehands are very individualistic, but that does not mean everything works.

[jjktennis]

The thing with big backswings is it gives great leverage which is why soderling has such a weapon if you look at del potro he has a big backswing also however del potro hits thru the ball alot more then soderling who has the more low to high swing pattern.

[worldsbestcoach]

leverage

Some big backswings have good leverage; some don't. I could write an encyclopedia about leverage. If you want to teach leverage, there are so many more important things to say than "take a big backswing." Many of the pros, even some of the best players in the world, have huge holes in their forehands that are related to big backswings.

[GeoffWilliams]

Yet, the big back swing doesn't seem to hurt them, even on returns! How is that even possible, that delpo, and Soderling, can take such huge swings on returns? They hardly shorten the stroke at all. I just can't do that.

[worldsbestcoach]

tracking the ball

I notice plenty of lousy service returns by touring pros, due to lousy preparations (immediately to the presumed "power position"), and also due to backswings that are too loose and wild.

I was watching Soderling today on some recorded video. On the topspin forehand (which Soderling actually hits with sidespin), Robin first sets his racket forward, tracking the ball well with his strings, as he prepares for the incoming ball. Therefore, even though he takes a big backswing, Soderling has somewhat of a forward-emphasis topspin forehand, rather than the backward-emphasis forehand that I have found so much fault with. In other words, Soderling's first reaction is to set his racket forward, before he takes his backswing. That is a good practice by Robin.

Also, as I have said before, Robin can get away with the big backswing more than most players can, because Robin hits his forehand with so much sidespin. Sometimes Nadal also has a big backswing, but Rafa also emphasizes a topspin forehand that has a lot of sidespin on it. Federer's amazing forehand crosscourt passing shots have sidespin. For some reason, when a player attempts sidespin, the resultant shot has tremendous dip on it, also.

A good example of the difference between a forward-emphasis forehand and a backward-emphasis forehand could be seen at the U.S. Clay Court championships in Houston. For most of the semifinals against Cuevas, Kei Nishikori was hitting backward-emphasis forehands. (That is, Nishikori's first reaction was to prepare his racket to the ill-named "power position.") But Kei's best forehand of the match was the winning shot on match point, in which he first set his racket forward to track the ball well, and then blistered the ball for a winner with a compact backswing and subsequent pouncing forward towards the ball with his racket.

On that winning shot, Kei avoided the power position. He avoided getting too sideways. He avoided setting the racket too far back. On that winning shot, Kei got behind the ball rather than postioning himself at the side of the ball. He easily opened his hips and shoulders. Most of his motion was forward.

In that same match, Pablo Cuevas hit many good forward-emphasis forehands, although Cuevas sometimes blows the forehand with absolutely wild follow-throughs. (I loved many of Cuevas's nice 1-handed topspin backhands, also.)