Rather frustrating...

[10splayer]

IIII,

Certainly, if you get a deeper drop it is easier to get the racket around and have a longer path up to the ball during which you are able to accelerate the racket head and increase the momentum of the racket head in the direction you want to hit the ball, but...

I

f you don't swing the racket head over to the line towards the target,

you don't get the benefit of that deep drop. If you swing across on an angle (which most players do to a small degree), you only get a glancing blow. Your power is not going to the target. But someone with a relatively shallow drop can hit the ball pretty fast (I try not to use the word "hard" when talking about speed), if they can get on this line that I am referring to at the bottom of their relatively shallow drop.

Imagine if you were hitting a nail with a hammer. You want to bring the hammer to the nail right in line with the direction it has to go.

Or let's try a little different image: Let's say you are trying to get a car up to a high speed in a hurry. I will give you two choices:

1. You can have a long approach, say 300 ft., to a turn before a straightaway, but the straightaway is relatively short, say 1/8th of a mile and you can control the car through the turn at up to say 40mph.

or

2. You can have a short approach, say 100 ft., to the same turn, but then you have a full 1/4 mile to see what kind of speed you can get up to.

I'm not a car expert, but unless you have some super-charged dragster, you are not going to be able to get up to full speed in that 1/8th of a mile and the difference you got in the speed coming into the turn is relatively insignificant. The part that counts is when you can get the car on the straightaway and put the pedal to the metal. Since most of us do not have turbocharged arms and shoulders, we need as much "straightaway" as possible to accelerate the racket to the impact and we need to do that in the direction we want to hit the ball, not only for speed, but also for consistency and accuracy. Those qualities can not be overlooked, although they often are in these discussions.

You can place someone in a static "backscratch" position, even one of maximum depth, and they will not be able to get the racket head over to this line I'm talking about without wasting a lot of potential power. You need the momentum of the racket head as it approaches its low point in the "drop" to swing the head over to the right when the body swings the hips and then shoulders forward. You can see that on my clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_CRdVLnp4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

and also in the clip of Djokovic that Phil just posted with the two rackets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyijtStZvo

Hope that clarifies what I am trying to say.

And Phil,
It's only the "pro drop" if you get over to the right near the bottom of the drop of the racket head and have a long approach to the ball to accelerate to contact.

don

In your opinion Don, what would be a reason for this?

[tennis_chiro]

Don't quite get the question

In your opinion Don, what would be a reason for this?

Of course, everything I said above was my opinion, but I feel it is pretty well backed up by the slow motion video and fits with John and Brian's work in the articles on this site. I tried to be as clear as I could in explaining and backing up what I was trying to say there.

What do you mean by "this"?

don

[gzhpcu]

IIII,



Or let's try a little different image: Let's say you are trying to get a car up to a high speed in a hurry. I will give you two choices:

1. You can have a long approach, say 300 ft., to a turn before a straightaway, but the straightaway is relatively short, say 1/8th of a mile and you can control the car through the turn at up to say 40mph.

or

2. You can have a short approach, say 100 ft., to the same turn, but then you have a full 1/4 mile to see what kind of speed you can get up to.

I'm not a car expert, but unless you have some super-charged dragster, you are not going to be able to get up to full speed in that 1/8th of a mile and the difference you got in the speed coming into the turn is relatively insignificant. The part that counts is when you can get the car on the straightaway and put the pedal to the metal. Since most of us do not have turbocharged arms and shoulders, we need as much "straightaway" as possible to accelerate the racket to the impact and we need to do that in the direction we want to hit the ball, not only for speed, but also for consistency and accuracy. Those qualities can not be overlooked, although they often are in these discussions.


don

Don, the only problem I have with this image, is one I have mentioned previously: the pros only start to really accelerate just shortly prior to the hit. The long stretch helps accuracy, IMHO, but not necessarily speed.

[llll]

don thanks for the reply.
so even if someones drop is as high as those ropers i showed if they got to the right before going up the would have a faster serve for them.
so if i can put words in your mouth and extrapolate(please correct me )
the slot or the line from the right of the body to the ball is necessary for power.
the length of being in that line correlates to how much.
is that accurate??

[llll]

phil just to get back to the original question so you dont hijack your own thread
can i see a video of you throwing a ball please.

[10splayer]

Of course, everything I said above was my opinion, but I feel it is pretty well backed up by the slow motion video and fits with John and Brian's work in the articles on this site. I tried to be as clear as I could in explaining and backing up what I was trying to say there.

What do you mean by "this"?

don

Oh no, don't take it the wrong way. The "this" is in reference to your sentence I placed in quotes. If a player is not getting the racquet enough to the right, before the upward movement, is there a possible reason for this? Perhaps time constraints? Just picking your mind as to the cause, and perhaps the way you would tackle this issue with students..

The reason I'm asking is simply this. In Phil's case, the racquet/arm from this low position with the elbow, has to travel so far, in a really short period of time. The timing demands could compromise not only the depth of drop, but also the positioning of the racquet as it starts it's upward move. Just interested in your opinion.

[gzhpcu]

phil just to get back to the original question so you dont hijack your own thread
can i see a video of you throwing a ball please.

Will try to post it tomorrow...

[tennis_chiro]

F=ma

Don, the only problem I have with this image, is one I have mentioned previously: the pros only start to really accelerate just shortly prior to the hit. The long stretch helps accuracy, IMHO, but not necessarily speed.

It's a question of how much force you can apply to speeding up the racket head: the longer you can apply that force the more acceleration you can impart to the racket head. The racket is light, but not weightless. You can't accelerate it to maximum speed like a magic wand or a conductor's baton (wrong word); ie you could swing a badminton racket much faster than a tennis racket. At some point the law of diminishing returns would apply as you reached your maximum speed; maybe Sampras gets close to that, but you certainly don't from the position you are going up to the ball.

In my "throne reading" this morning I was going over an illustration from Cross and Lindsey's Technical Tennis (I think you have it. I'm hoping you will put it up. It will take me about a half hour to get it up through Photoshop): Match Point Box 4.4 on page 146, fig 4.13 and 4.14. Figure 4.14 shows the way the racket moves over toward this imaginary line to the target. It doesn't quite get there, but it is notable that the move takes place almost entirely at the bottom of the drop.

Finally, momentum does matter. If you create momentum away from the target, you only get a portion of that momentum towards the target.

Have you tried my fig 8 and feet together forward fig 8 drills?

don

[tennis_chiro]

You got it

don thanks for the reply.
so even if someones drop is as high as those ropers i showed if they got to the right before going up the would have a faster serve for them.
so if i can put words in your mouth and extrapolate(please correct me )
the slot or the line from the right of the body to the ball is necessary for power.
the length of being in that line correlates to how much.
is that accurate??

Seems like you got my point. Imagine: how could little Justine Henin serve 115mph? How could slim Michael Stich serve 132mph without appearing to exert any great amount of energy?

don

[tennis_chiro]

Different reasons

Oh no, don't take it the wrong way. The "this" is in reference to your sentence I placed in quotes. If a player is not getting the racquet enough to the right, before the upward movement, is there a possible reason for this? Perhaps time constraints? Just picking your mind as to the cause, and perhaps the way you would tackle this issue with students..

The reason I'm asking is simply this. In Phil's case, the racquet/arm from this low position with the elbow, has to travel so far, in a really short period of time. The timing demands could compromise not only the depth of drop, but also the positioning of the racquet as it starts it's upward move. Just interested in your opinion.

10splayer,
Sorry, I didn't understand your reference for "this".

Players get stuck in the "backscratch" for a couple of reasons.

Sometimes they try so hard to get the deep drop that they pull it in and tighten up the muscles as they do so. This limits the flexibility of the shoulder to swing the racket head around to my "line" (I've got to name that something).

Sometimes the toss is so high that they have to pause to wait for it and instead of waiting in the trophy position (I don't advise this but it at least enables the pro drop: ie jay berger who pops back up to the trophy position), they wait down in the "backscratch". You can't get over to the "line" without a little momentum coming into the bottom of the drop. Not only does this swing the racket head over to the "line", but it further loads the shoulder and pec muscles as you stretch the shoulder, giving you even more power.

The "backscratch" as a learning tool and step in a learning progression has significant, but definitely limited usefulness. I use it in explaining the motion and going through a learning progression, but even as I introduce it, I explain that it doesn't exist in the actual serve. As soon as possible you want to get the student serving from the trophy position so they get a feel for the swing of the racket head over to the right at the bottom of the drop.

I'm sure there are other reasons for problems, but those are the ones that come to mind right away.

Hope that helps,
don

[tennis_chiro]

One other important point

10splayer,
Sorry, I didn't understand your reference for "this".

Players get stuck in the "backscratch" for a couple of reasons.

Sometimes they try so hard to get the deep drop that they pull it in and tighten up the muscles as they do so. This limits the flexibility of the shoulder to swing the racket head around to my "line" (I've got to name that something).

Sometimes the toss is so high that they have to pause to wait for it and instead of waiting in the trophy position (I don't advise this but it at least enables the pro drop: ie jay berger who pops back up to the trophy position), they wait down in the "backscratch". You can't get over to the "line" without a little momentum coming into the bottom of the drop. Not only does this swing the racket head over to the "line", but it further loads the shoulder and pec muscles as you stretch the shoulder, giving you even more power.

The "backscratch" as a learning tool and step in a learning progression has significant, but definitely limited usefulness. I use it in explaining the motion and going through a learning progression, but even as I introduce it, I explain that it doesn't exist in the actual serve. As soon as possible you want to get the student serving from the trophy position so they get a feel for the swing of the racket head over to the right at the bottom of the drop.

I'm sure there are other reasons for problems, but those are the ones that come to mind right away.

Hope that helps,
don

There is one other important point. A lot of the problem with getting this little "loop" feeling at the bottom of the drop is ineffective hip and shoulder turn. This is where the real power of the legs and core comes into play, not in the extension from bending your knees. This is the focus of the "feet together forward Figure 8" drill that I outlined and demonstrated in an earlier post in this thread. It is kind of a "lead with your bellybutton" drill. This is a little unorthodox, but it is terrific in getting players to feel and develop this aspect of the serve. Most can serve much better in this position without moving their feet than they can with their full motion, at least until they learn the concept. I always like it as a great warmup drill for the serve.

don

[gzhpcu]

It's a question of how much force you can apply to speeding up the racket head: the longer you can apply that force the more acceleration you can impart to the racket head. The racket is light, but not weightless. You can't accelerate it to maximum speed like a magic wand or a conductor's baton (wrong word); ie you could swing a badminton racket much faster than a tennis racket. At some point the law of diminishing returns would apply as you reached your maximum speed; maybe Sampras gets close to that, but you certainly don't from the position you are going up to the ball.

In my "throne reading" this morning I was going over an illustration from Cross and Lindsey's Technical Tennis (I think you have it. I'm hoping you will put it up. It will take me about a half hour to get it up through Photoshop): Match Point Box 4.4 on page 146, fig 4.13 and 4.14. Figure 4.14 shows the way the racket moves over toward this imaginary line to the target. It doesn't quite get there, but it is notable that the move takes place almost entirely at the bottom of the drop.

Finally, momentum does matter. If you create momentum away from the target, you only get a portion of that momentum towards the target.

Have you tried my fig 8 and feet together forward fig 8 drills?

don

Must be another book by Lindsey and Cross, sorry don't have that one...
Will try your excercises soon and let you know... thanks...

[gzhpcu]

Phil,
I'm really not that flexible anymore, so my drop is a little shallow. But you need to take the still of Sampras 6 or 7 clicks past the spot you have chosen here. Then I think you will see the difference. You are accelerating up before you get to that point. Not only should the butt of the racket point at the ball; it should also be pointing in the general direction, or at least in the plane formed by these three points:butt cap, ball and target...approximately. Your racket is pointed way off to the right of the target (as is Pete's in the picture, but 6 clicks later it is positioned in the plane I have just described). What I wanted you to see in my clumsy videos was the way the head of the racket swings over to this position. It won't do that because you bend your arm more. It happens because the momentum of the drop even as you begin to go up swings the head over there.

Is this what you mean?... I took my photo a couple of frames later too...


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[gzhpcu]

OK, here is the toss...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhjtd80q-TE

I assume this is the relevant frame...

[stotty]

There seems to be a definite physical restriction in your throwing clip, a lack of flexibility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhjtd80q-TE

Try to throw more upwards so the arm is locked out fully vertical when you release the ball. The arm almost oscillates out to the side in the clip and the arm is nowhere near fully vertical. Definitely a flexibility restriction issue if you ask me. Get stretching, Phil