Rather frustrating...

[gzhpcu]

Thanks jperedo,
I hadn't really noticed. When you look at something too long, you at times don't see what a person looking for the first time does. Will try it out....

[gzhpcu]

Yes jperedo,
Looking at this article on biomechanics of serve by Brian Gordon: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...pper_body.html

The goal here is to attain an angle of no more than 20 degrees between the upper arm and a horizontal extending from the shoulder.

Larger angles above the horizontal will decrease racquet drop depth and reduce the range of motion of early shoulder rotation in the upward swing. For gifted pro players this angle may approach something close to zero.

In a testament to the flexibility of youth, our example server is only slightly above the horizontal line at 10 degrees. Older athletes can find it increasingly difficult to attain even the goal angle of 20 degrees

I missed that too...

[10splayer]

Greetings Phil

Sorry i didn't really look through the whole thread so im not sure if someone else has already mentioned what i'm about to describe. Anyways, here is what i noticed based on the pictures you posted.

I notice that you appear to be using shoulder flexion (not sure if im using this term properly) in order to raise your elbow to try and force a racquet drop. From what I understand, the vertical movement of the elbow and subsequent racquet drop should be a function of the cartwheel motion rather shoulder flexion (what B.G calls a "motion dependant effect).

Note in my crude photochop that Safin's elbow has only raised because of his cartwheel. I have drawn a line to show that the arm angle stays consistent meaning very little shoulder flexion. An important thing to notice is how the hand barely moves position, and the body "moves around it". As the body rotates upwards the weight of the racquet acts as an anchor forcing the arm to externally rotate (of course there is probably more to it, but that's the main idea).

In comparison, note how much shoulder flexion you are using. This is preventing the racquet from acting as an anchor (because the force of your arm is pulling it forward). As a result, you are not creating passive external rotation.

So my suggestion, try focusing on keeping this angle constant and use your cartwheel motion to create the racquet drop.

Agreed, the elbow position is way to low. It also makes it all but impossible to time the leg drive with the progressions of the arm.

[gzhpcu]

Your issues are not in the "drop"...but they are a product of a hurried and incomplete backswing. You have excellent flex for your age. Want to know more? I can see you have had plenty of help!

Anything you think might have some tip to help, it is more than welcome, Don. In the meantime I am working on the various suggestions. When I finally see progress, I'll come back. My serve does have more bite now, but want to stabilize everything first...
I have been trying to take the Gonzalez serve as a model to attempt to imitate...

[gzhpcu]

Well, I am still struggling....

[llll]

phil heres a thought and an observatio
btw have tried throwing the ball then trying to serve??


since its been pointed out and you agree(i think) that your elbow/upper arm is too low and close to your body in trophy
try some abbreviated motion serves focusing on keeping your upper arm in line with your shoulders to get the feel of tropthy with your elbow higher and your upper arm more in line with your shoulders.


also the 5th picture from the left looks to me you are no longer on edge going to contact
if that is true you are pronating early and losing racquet head speed
if you hold it longer you might get more pop in your serve.

[gzhpcu]

Think one sees that better here...



Throwing, then hitting? I have a pretty high toss already....

[llll]

Think one sees that better here...



Throwing, then hitting? I have a pretty high toss already....

first that picture is not close enough to contact
if you can stop frame a video of yours go backwards from contact to see where you start to pronate.

throw then hit
this is sort of like dons figure 8s
pretend to toss with your left hand and throw the ball to the back fence

do that a few times


then try to toss maybe lower so you can simulate the same timing and feeling of your arm


dont worry where the serve goes right now

[gzhpcu]

Well, here is Gonzales...

[llll]

Well, here is Gonzales...

VERY MUCH DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
he is much more on edge
you are almost in waiters position(SLIGHT exaggeration)

[llll]

phil man
humor me please and do the exercises i have suggested for one week(a month would be better)
is that to much to ask???
then you can tell me im a terrible coach and dont know what im doing and ill be ok with that

[gzhpcu]

Thanks all... have been 4 days in Venice, will be getting back to the courts Friday, I hope... I agree about the problematic backswing... always was a bit too fast...and jerky... work to do...

Just some more comments. I have always had a loose grip on the serve, especially the last three fingers. As far as the height of the toss is concerned, if I currently lower it, I don't serve well. I only can reach up and get it if I toss relatively high. This might be a consequence of my current backswing, however.

Will try to slow down the backswing and, as larry recommends, get my elbow up higher.

As far as being distracted by beautiful women, I am lucky to have a beautiful wife, and I always serve better when she is watching... I rarely hit any double faults in a match, and always swing as hard as I can... but, am not happy with the aesthetics of my serve...

Lugano is full of Swedes and Norwegians, by the way. In fact, two of my regular playing partners are a Swede from Bstaad, and a Norwegian. Ever think of moving down here? Believe me the weather here is semitropical.

Even with my faulty backswing, I used to be ranked around number 100 in Switzerland during my best days... this would have been when I was 35....

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Don for your thoughts.

As far as the grip on the serve is concerned, on Tennisone, they say:



It has always been my understanding that the thumb and forefinger should be loose on groundstrokes...

Aesthetics is very important to me... (I am a hobby painter....)



Which is why I will work at getting a better looking serve, and, in the process, I am sure, an even better one...

[llll]

Thanks Don for your thoughts.

As far as the grip on the serve is concerned, on Tennisone, they say:



It has always been my understanding that the thumb and forefinger should be loose on groundstrokes...

Aesthetics is very important to me... (I am a hobby painter....)



Which is why I will work at getting a better looking serve, and, in the process, I am sure, an even better one...

keep working at it tiger(nice painting)

[gzhpcu]