Rather frustrating...

[tennis_chiro]

"Very Interesting"

phil i still disagree alittle
did you try my drills???
look at the cylindar drill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06ToXPyJYA

no legs just learning to use your upper body.
will you serve 120 this way probably not
but if you dont get the throwing motion and coming from the right side of your body as dons drill try to get you to do
you can forget about your legs
icbw
and tell me if i am
i am a student also who suffers from all the things in one way or another that phil does

Thanks for the link to Pat Dougherty's drills. What did Arte Johnson say every week on Laugh In: "Very interesting". Of course, you youngsters wouldn't understand. You should watch reruns of "Laugh In" on youtube. Try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh2nD...eature=related
to get you started.

First of all, Larry is right. The legs go up first. But what do they actually do. They just enable you to load the shoulder and get the arm a little more externally rotated before you go into internal rotation. (The forward rotation of the hips by the legs is another story, but comes after the upward motion being highlighted in Phil's motion. However, that part of the leg motion is critical and comes before the final upward snap. That part of the leg/hip/shoulder motion is what I am emphasizing in my "feet-together-forward Figure 8" drill.) After all Sjeng Schalken proved to us you could serve just under 110 with almost no flex in the knees at all. Phil, you could still serve pretty well without that much knee action, but you can't if you don't get the rackethead over to the right and on the "line". Same will be true for you, IIII. Maybe Dougherty's drill with the whip up above will give you a clue. I still prefer my Fig8's and weighted racket head.

Second, I need to get more videos up on my channel so I can demonstrate what I am trying to explain so much of the time in my lessons as well as here.

Third, if Pat is the Serve Doctor at Bolletierri's, I can only imagine what he must be charging and I ... oh well, as Goldie would say: "Never Mind".

don

[gzhpcu]

phil i still disagree alittle
did you try my drills???
look at the cylindar drill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06ToXPyJYA

no legs just learning to use your upper body.
will you serve 120 this way probably not
but if you dont get the throwing motion and coming from the right side of your body as dons drill try to get you to do
you can forget about your legs
icbw
and tell me if i am
i am a student also who suffers from all the things in one way or another that phil does

Good stuff. Only thing I don't like about Pat's drill here, is that the emphasis is on shoulder rotation to the detriment of cartwheeling. That's why I like his "up the mountain" drill better...

[gzhpcu]

OK... think it is getting more to the right... now to get it lower...

[gzhpcu]

BTW: Just remembered an old tennis VHS tape by Vic Braden on the serve, where he said "scratch a friend's back", with the friend standing to the right of the player.

[tennis_chiro]

Looks better

OK... think it is getting more to the right... now to get it lower...

Okay. It looks like you are making progress. Can you feel/see any difference in the result?

Keep it up.
don

[llll]

Good stuff. Only thing I don't like about Pat's drill here, is that the emphasis is on shoulder rotation to the detriment of cartwheeling. That's why I like his "up the mountain" drill better...

shoulder rotation is cartwheeling
only difference is angle/axis

TRUE??
FALSE??

[gzhpcu]

shoulder rotation is cartwheeling
only difference is angle/axis

TRUE??
FALSE??

The horizontal shoulder rotation in Pat's video is not cartwheeling. It is rotation around the vertical axis. Cartwheeling is around a different axis.

This is a big difference, we are not only talking about geometry here. There are three degrees of freedom along the x,y,z-axis respectively.

Somersaulting, cartwheeling and horizontal shoulder rotation are three different things.

I used to rotate horizontally too much, bringing my right shoulder around excessively. I finally got rid of it, and this excercise would bring it back.

[gzhpcu]

To be clearer:

[gzhpcu]

The three axises:

[bottle]

I still don't understand this. Horizontal, okay (Dougherty's "cylinder serve").
Cartwheel. Yeah, the shoulder over shoulder. But somersault? What is that if not shoulder over shoulder? Ass over tea-kettle?

I do think it's all very important, that the way somebody thinks of these things
is crucial, and that everybody is probably more confused than any teaching pro in the world has ever realized.

I like the image of a long bow cocked and then released, combined with
cylinder movement later after one has thoroughly learned the first part.
I'd love to mess with any new way of thinking about these things, however.
Whatever works best.

[gzhpcu]

I still don't understand this. Horizontal, okay (Dougherty's "cylinder serve").
Cartwheel. Yeah, the shoulder over shoulder. But somersault? What is that if not shoulder over shoulder? Ass over tea-kettle?

bottle,
It is a different axis, it is perpendicular to the cartwheel. Think simply of bending forward when facing the net.

[latreille]

serve motion

Hello,

from the clip i see for me , there perhpas some thing you can try,

1 your take back motion start from an Inside in motion - your right arm and racquet come in diagonal back to te left side of your body - you should try come from outisde your body -go outside on the right side , that bring yu to open yur arm and racquet head to early and you losse the gravity action to bring rquct up and albow higher in yur power position later



2 from yur power yur right elbow and hand are too low - should be near neck level- your right elbow move forward on the right side on yur body - mean you start to rotation motion before the Drop motion , so no chance to drop - yu have to stabiliez eyour elbow to be ablle to let the racquet drop -using the legs extension and the gravity

to resume simpley
1 take go ouside yur body and arm relax , let gravity work to find the highr power postion

2 stabilize yur right elbow until yur drop is achieve and only after rotate your body - maintaining albow stability

can you try this and le me know?
cheers
Yves

[gzhpcu]

Hi Yves,
I think I see what you mean...
Will give it a try, thanks...

[llll]

The horizontal shoulder rotation in Pat's video is not cartwheeling. It is rotation around the vertical axis. Cartwheeling is around a different axis.

phil I agree you are correct

[jperedo]

Greetings Phil

Sorry i didn't really look through the whole thread so im not sure if someone else has already mentioned what i'm about to describe. Anyways, here is what i noticed based on the pictures you posted.

I notice that you appear to be using shoulder flexion (not sure if im using this term properly) in order to raise your elbow to try and force a racquet drop. From what I understand, the vertical movement of the elbow and subsequent racquet drop should be a function of the cartwheel motion rather shoulder flexion (what B.G calls a "motion dependant effect).

Note in my crude photochop that Safin's elbow has only raised because of his cartwheel. I have drawn a line to show that the arm angle stays consistent meaning very little shoulder flexion. An important thing to notice is how the hand barely moves position, and the body "moves around it". As the body rotates upwards the weight of the racquet acts as an anchor forcing the arm to externally rotate (of course there is probably more to it, but that's the main idea).

In comparison, note how much shoulder flexion you are using. This is preventing the racquet from acting as an anchor (because the force of your arm is pulling it forward). As a result, you are not creating passive external rotation.

So my suggestion, try focusing on keeping this angle constant and use your cartwheel motion to create the racquet drop.