Rather frustrating...

[10splayer]

Here is my trophy:


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and my drop:


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I think I do have my leg extension timed with my racket drop. OK, I don't use my legs that much, but still...

You don't have to shut up.. All comments are helpful and welcome...

In the first caption, the racquet is not ready to enter the back. Not even close. You still are going to have to lift the arm significantly to get it to go downward. With your limited leg action, what do you think will be compromised? Perhaps the depth of the drop?

[gzhpcu]

phil what about the video of your throwing a ball???
actually try taking a video of you trying to throw a racquet as far as you can??
that would be revealing


did you try my "drills"???
if you read bottles next to last paragraph he also describes the forearm and upper arm coming closer together or increased elbow bend

Will try next week to video my throwing a ball... can't with the racket, because I don't have an old racket...

[gzhpcu]

Here a shot of my trying to get a drop just going through the motion:



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As you can see, am no longer very flexible...

[llll]

Here a shot of my trying to get a drop just going through the motion:



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As you can see, am no longer very flexible...

look at how deep you got
look how deep you get on your serve
you can get deeper
we all cant get a roddick drop\
but we can maximise what we can do

[tennis_chiro]

I didn't really say that

No, no, Phil already gets his hand significantly lower than that, but people here are trying to help him get it even lower, especially Chiro.

Phil,

I finally got the stuff I wanted to show you posted on youtube. In fact, I don't think the key for you is getting a deeper drop. Declining flexibility kind of precludes that. But if you go to John's article in Advanced Tennis: Pete Sampras: New Filming Protocols Classic Motions in Advanced Tennis and go to the last Quicktime Video at the bottom of the article and download it

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/sampras_serve/sampras_new_filming_protocols/sampras_new_filming_protocols.html

you can go about 7 seconds into that clip and see that Pete's arm is not bent all that much. But look at the way the racket head comes around in the next few frames to line up the butt of the racket with the ball and the target while it is still pretty low. That is the key that will get you the power you are looking for.

Here is a clip of what I am talking about specifically with the drop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_CRdVLnp4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is a longer version that goes with the longer post I put up at the very beginning of this thread. The comments on youtube help explain what I am getting at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb70sir9BZw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

To better understand what I was talking about in the aforementioned long post, check the following two clips. I had the camera set for high speed by mistake and it didn't record the audio narration I was giving, but if you read the post, you will understand what I am getting at.

First for the regular Figure 8 drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaS-qtQWym4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Then for the "feet together forward" Figure 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22IeFCPYOd0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Phil, you have gotten a lot of very good tips here in this thread, I think partly because we appreciate all the good stuff you put up here. I hope they help you get that snap back in your serve.

good luck,
don

[tennis_chiro]

I forgot

I forgot to mention you should compare your very first picture in post number 4. It shows you not getting to the position I was talking about.
don

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Don.

So I tried making a comparison:



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and Pete


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I see the butt cap pointing to the ball position. What I still have difficulty understanding is: do you get automatically into this position by just being very loose, or, do you, at first have to make a conscious effort? Because I really think I have a loose grip but still don't manage to get there...

[tennis_chiro]

Six more clicks

Thanks Don.

So I tried making a comparison:



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and Pete


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I see the butt cap pointing to the ball position. What I still have difficulty understanding is: do you get automatically into this position by just being very loose, or, do you, at first have to make a conscious effort? Because I really think I have a loose grip but still don't manage to get there...

Phil,
I'm really not that flexible anymore, so my drop is a little shallow. But you need to take the still of Sampras 6 or 7 clicks past the spot you have chosen here. Then I think you will see the difference. You are accelerating up before you get to that point. Not only should the butt of the racket point at the ball; it should also be pointing in the general direction, or at least in the plane formed by these three points:butt cap, ball and target...approximately. Your racket is pointed way off to the right of the target (as is Pete's in the picture, but 6 clicks later it is positioned in the plane I have just described). What I wanted you to see in my clumsy videos was the way the head of the racket swings over to this position. It won't do that because you bend your arm more. It happens because the momentum of the drop even as you begin to go up swings the head over there.

That's the difference you are looking for. Find someone with a Casio ExLim Camera and they can catch you at 200 or more frames per second and you will see it.

Also, using a racket with a weighted head is also very effective in emphasizing this effect...just for a practice swing.
don

[gzhpcu]

Also, using a racket with a weighted head is also very effective in emphasizing this effect...just for a practice swing.
don

Thanks don...
You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyijtStZvo

Todd has Novak practice swing using two rackets...

[llll]

tennis_chiro
the position you are referring to is that the racquet gets to the right side of the body (almost parrallel)as it goes up to contact in servers who get a good racquet drop.
for those that dont the racquet goes up to contact more diagonally across their back.
is that correct????
thats sort of how i understand it

[tennis_chiro]

Close, but not quite

Thanks don...
You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyijtStZvo

Todd has Novak practice swing using two rackets...

Using two rackets like that is a great way to loosen up your shoulder and warm up your arm. It is also useful in the move of the racket head I am talking about. But Todd should have him imitating an actual hitting action as the racket head goes up to the ball (internal rotation) so the face of the racket is facing in the right direction at the actual area of contact.

But you can see the exaggerated move of Novak's racket off to the right as it comes around before it goes up.

It works a little better with an actual weight on a racket so you can use your normal grip.

don

[gzhpcu]

tennis_chiro
the position you are referring to is that the racquet gets to the right side of the body (almost parrallel)as it goes up to contact in servers who get a good racquet drop.
for those that dont the racquet goes up to contact more diagonally across their back.
is that correct????
thats sort of how i understand it

Isn't this what John calls the "pro drop"?

[tennis_chiro]

Not quite IIII

tennis_chiro
the position you are referring to is that the racquet gets to the right side of the body (almost parrallel)as it goes up to contact in servers who get a good racquet drop.
for those that dont the racquet goes up to contact more diagonally across their back.
is that correct????
thats sort of how i understand it

IIII,

Certainly, if you get a deeper drop it is easier to get the racket around and have a longer path up to the ball during which you are able to accelerate the racket head and increase the momentum of the racket head in the direction you want to hit the ball, but...

If you don't swing the racket head over to the line towards the target, you don't get the benefit of that deep drop. If you swing across on an angle (which most players do to a small degree), you only get a glancing blow. Your power is not going to the target. But someone with a relatively shallow drop can hit the ball pretty fast (I try not to use the word "hard" when talking about speed), if they can get on this line that I am referring to at the bottom of their relatively shallow drop.

Imagine if you were hitting a nail with a hammer. You want to bring the hammer to the nail right in line with the direction it has to go.

Or let's try a little different image: Let's say you are trying to get a car up to a high speed in a hurry. I will give you two choices:

1. You can have a long approach, say 300 ft., to a turn before a straightaway, but the straightaway is relatively short, say 1/8th of a mile and you can control the car through the turn at up to say 40mph.

or

2. You can have a short approach, say 100 ft., to the same turn, but then you have a full 1/4 mile to see what kind of speed you can get up to.

I'm not a car expert, but unless you have some super-charged dragster, you are not going to be able to get up to full speed in that 1/8th of a mile and the difference you got in the speed coming into the turn is relatively insignificant. The part that counts is when you can get the car on the straightaway and put the pedal to the metal. Since most of us do not have turbocharged arms and shoulders, we need as much "straightaway" as possible to accelerate the racket to the impact and we need to do that in the direction we want to hit the ball, not only for speed, but also for consistency and accuracy. Those qualities can not be overlooked, although they often are in these discussions.

You can place someone in a static "backscratch" position, even one of maximum depth, and they will not be able to get the racket head over to this line I'm talking about without wasting a lot of potential power. You need the momentum of the racket head as it approaches its low point in the "drop" to swing the head over to the right when the body swings the hips and then shoulders forward. You can see that on my clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_CRdVLnp4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

and also in the clip of Djokovic that Phil just posted with the two rackets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyijtStZvo

Hope that clarifies what I am trying to say.

And Phil,
It's only the "pro drop" if you get over to the right near the bottom of the drop of the racket head and have a long approach to the ball to accelerate to contact.

don

[julian1]

A bit of postive note,please

IIII,

Certainly, if you get a deeper drop it is easier to get the racket around and have a longer path up to the ball during which you are able to accelerate the racket head and increase the momentum of the racket head in the direction you want to hit the ball, but...

If you don't swing the racket head over to the line towards the target, you don't get the benefit of that deep drop. If you swing across on an angle (which most players do to a small degree), you only get a glancing blow. Your power is not going to the target. But someone with a relatively shallow drop can hit the ball pretty fast (I try not to use the word "hard" when talking about speed), if they can get on this line that I am referring to at the bottom of their relatively shallow drop.

Imagine if you were hitting a nail with a hammer. You want to bring the hammer to the nail right in line with the direction it has to go.

Or let's try a little different image: Let's say you are trying to get a car up to a high speed in a hurry. I will give you two choices:

1. You can have a long approach, say 300 ft., to a turn before a straightaway, but the straightaway is relatively short, say 1/8th of a mile and you can control the car through the turn at up to say 40mph.

or

2. You can have a short approach, say 100 ft., to the same turn, but then you have a full 1/4 mile to see what kind of speed you can get up to.

I'm not a car expert, but unless you have some super-charged dragster, you are not going to be able to get up to full speed in that 1/8th of a mile and the difference you got in the speed coming into the turn is relatively insignificant. The part that counts is when you can get the car on the straightaway and put the pedal to the metal. Since most of us do not have turbocharged arms and shoulders, we need as much "straightaway" as possible to accelerate the racket to the impact and we need to do that in the direction we want to hit the ball, not only for speed, but also for consistency and accuracy. Those qualities can not be overlooked, although they often are in these discussions.

You can place someone in a static "backscratch" position, even one of maximum depth, and they will not be able to get the racket head over to this line I'm talking about without wasting a lot of potential power. You need the momentum of the racket head as it approaches its low point in the "drop" to swing the head over to the right when the body swings the hips and then shoulders forward. You can see that on my clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_CRdVLnp4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

and also in the clip of Djokovic that Phil just posted with the two rackets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyijtStZvo

Hope that clarifies what I am trying to say.

And Phil,
It's only the "pro drop" if you get over to the right near the bottom of the drop of the racket head and have a long approach to the ball to accelerate to contact.

don

Don,
is it possible that someone will say one positive thing about a serve of Djokovic AFTER a match today ( taped/today of EST) ?

[tennis_chiro]

Pretty good showing

Don,
is it possible that someone will say one positive thing about a serve of Djokovic AFTER a match today ( taped/today of EST) ?

I don't know; I didn't see it, but he got 69% of his first serves in, averaged almost 120 and won 73% of those points. He went to the net the same number of times as Fed (16/26 won vs 17/26 for Fed). The problem is 5 doubles in just 39 chances. That's about his rhythm and toss. He could definitely serve better, but he did defend 7/10 of Fed's break chances successfully. And his average first serve speed was about 93mph, ok but not good enough for #1. It's unlikely he can change the basic flaws in his hitting action at this stage, but if he hooks up with someone who really understands the relationship of the rhythm of the rock to the rhythm of the toss, I think he could improve his serve significantly. But I consider that highly unlikely.

don