Why Is Nadal's Forehand By Far the Heaviest?

[GMann]

Licensedcoach, Jim and others: I appreciate your input and responses to my original post.

I think that I made the mistake of not really defining what I meant by "heavy" or "heaviest." When I say "heavy" I am talking about heavy spin. This is not to be confused with light spin. The heavy ball that Nadal hits has such tremendous spin that it hurts the arms of even top players to return. I'm talking about RPM's and I recall that John Yandell has empirically established that Nadal's forehand has way more RPM's than anyone in one of his studies.

I am also not talking about speed, pace or MPH when I use the term "heavy."
I am in total agreement with those who point out that Soderling, DelPotro, Federer -- and I will add Gonzales -- all hit their average forehands harder or with more MPH than Nadal. I am talking about uprecedented spin which creates weight on the ball and makes it very difficult to handle. That same spin often makes the ball literally "run away" from the opponent.

For those of you who brought up Brugera I agree that this was insightful because he is probably the most similar to Nadal regarding RPM's (and remarkable foot speed according to Sampras's book) but I believe that his spin was probably "lighter" than Nadal's. I say this because I don't recall any pro ever talking about Brugera's ball actually jolting their arm when they tried to return it.

I also agree with those who have pointed out that Nadal can also really pound that forehand with great speed when he chooses to do so but he usually chooses to use the heavy ball as his rally ball.

I appreciate all ideas from those who have some insight into any different technique that Nadal uses that is distinguishable from any other player. I agree with "Stroke" and others that the reverse finish certainly contributes to his ability to generate these unprecedented RPM's.

[GMann]

[QUOTE=johnyandell;12587]There really isn't such a thing as "leverage" when it comes to tennis--it's all about the speed and direction of the racket. /QUOTE]

John: This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say this. My instincts tell me that your basis for this statement is largely based on semantics or some sort of purist or technical definition of "leverage." If tennis is just all about "speed and direction" of the racket and not leverage then how come virtually all powerful shots hit by professional players are hit with the butt cap of the racket coming to the ball before the racket face? You must have a different definition or term for what this technique really is. Most top tennis commentators including Pat Dougherty, Nick Bolletieri, Rick Macci, Doug King and Jeff Counts (many whom are your top contributing authors to your own website) refer to this as "leverage." If they are technically incorrect then I would appreciate if you could set us all straight and tell us what this critical technique (that adds tremendous power and control to tennis shots) really should be called.

If tennis power and control was all about the speed and direction of the racket then moving my racket face (without the butt cap first) towards the ball should produce the same power and quality ball as hitting it butt cap first. However, as we all know, the shot that is produced without what I was told is "leverage" is a pathetic shot with little power or spin no matter how hard or fast we swing. Please fill us in on what we should be calling this if "leverage" is not the appropriate term.

[jimlosaltos]

Reverse Forehand? Bruguera's spin. Safin.

After this thread was already underway, I read articles on this site that are relevant.

1) Yandell actually measured Bruguera's RPMs and they were comparable to Nadal's, even with his old equipment. (Somewhat higher, actually, but there were only 9 samples, so I'd caution against getting too detailed.)

2) Reverse forehand. In one of the analyses, Yandell says he didn't see any difference in RPMS between when Nadal hit a wrap-around and when he used the reverse, that's more a question of decelerating afterwards. Not the popular theory, but Yandell has studied this, the other are just guessing. You might ask John directly in that section of the forum; seems glad to reply.

Wish it was easier to search this site; I'd stick the links in.

3) As for Safin H2H with Nadal. Remember, they only played after Safin was coasting downhill long past his prime losing to 100-ranked players (missed a year with a back injury, like his sister, as I recall).

Nadal's match-up problem seems to be tall players. From memory, losses to Del Potro 6 ft 6 (3 straight), Cilic 6 ft 6, Joachim Johanssen 6 ft 6, Berdych 6 ft 5 (got even), Soderling (the runt of this group at 6 ft 4) ... which tells me the problem with handling his ball might be more the height inside the court than ability to hit it cleanly because it's "heavy". Just one data point.

Safin could crunch high balls on both sides. And moved much better than any of this generation's tall guys.

The other issue is that today's courts make everybody's shots bounce up much more than they used to, but that's food for another thread entirely

Looking forward to the Auzzie next week!

[GMann]

All very interesting points, Jim.

I think you're particularly on to something about how the courts have changed and now they are much higher bouncing. That could explain why hitting heavy spin has become so much more valuable now whereas doing that seemed to be more of a liability about 10 or 15 years ago.

[stroke]

After this thread was already underway, I read articles on this site that are relevant.

1) Yandell actually measured Bruguera's RPMs and they were comparable to Nadal's, even with his old equipment. (Somewhat higher, actually, but there were only 9 samples, so I'd caution against getting too detailed.)

2) Reverse forehand. In one of the analyses, Yandell says he didn't see any difference in RPMS between when Nadal hit a wrap-around and when he used the reverse, that's more a question of decelerating afterwards. Not the popular theory, but Yandell has studied this, the other are just guessing. You might ask John directly in that section of the forum; seems glad to reply.

Wish it was easier to search this site; I'd stick the links in.

3) As for Safin H2H with Nadal. Remember, they only played after Safin was coasting downhill long past his prime losing to 100-ranked players (missed a year with a back injury, like his sister, as I recall).

Nadal's match-up problem seems to be tall players. From memory, losses to Del Potro 6 ft 6 (3 straight), Cilic 6 ft 6, Joachim Johanssen 6 ft 6, Berdych 6 ft 5 (got even), Soderling (the runt of this group at 6 ft 4) ... which tells me the problem with handling his ball might be more the height inside the court than ability to hit it cleanly because it's "heavy". Just one data point.

Safin could crunch high balls on both sides. And moved much better than any of this generation's tall guys.

The other issue is that today's courts make everybody's shots bounce up much more than they used to, but that's food for another thread entirely

Looking forward to the Auzzie next week!

I rembember reading John's piece on Nadal's FH where he stated(with evidence) that Nadal's over the head finish produced no more RPM's than his across the body finish. What I have always found interesting is how Nadal uses his signature over the head finish so much to move and control the ball with the hook spin action he employs. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this is what reminds me so much of the world class ping pong player, who also used hook topspin on his FH drives.

[johnyandell]

On the leverage issue, I think it's fine to use that term in terms of coaching lingo, but if i understand how the physics has been explained to me, the butt cap idea actual supports the theory of racket spped. The movement in a certain sequence in certain directions is what generates the speed. The one debated issue may be grip pressure or strength. Heard that one argued either way.

On the Nadal spin, I think the interesting question would be to determine the spin components on the finishes--likely the reverse may have a higher sidespin component which would explain the hook and the jump.

[bigryoung]

Gulbis also commented on Nadal's forehand, saying it was slower than he thought it would be

[stickman]

I hit both the reverse and the ragular forehand... Not at nadals level... but if i get a sholder high ball and rip a reverse forehand i can make it twist some times, and out wide and cross court i hit shots the look like bananas. So i think nadal dosent give his opponents a clean bounce on every shot the ball moves a little bit and his opponents are a little gun shy at times... Just my idea...

This is for John.. If possible

I would like to know if his crosscourt forehand moves a little from left to right? You might be able to tell by were federer has his miss hits. Does fed mis hit more balls off the tip of his racket at the french... Does he mis hit more balls off the side of his racket on grass and hard courts?

Thaught of that just know .. lol

[julian1]

John

I hit both the reverse and the ragular forehand... Not at nadals level... but if i get a sholder high ball and rip a reverse forehand i can make it twist some times, and out wide and cross court i hit shots the look like bananas. So i think nadal dosent give his opponents a clean bounce on every shot the ball moves a little bit and his opponents are a little gun shy at times... Just my idea...

This is for John.. If possible

I would like to know if his crosscourt forehand moves a little from left to right? You might be able to tell by were federer has his miss hits. Does fed mis hit more balls off the tip of his racket at the french... Does he mis hit more balls off the side of his racket on grass and hard courts?

Thaught of that just know .. lol

You may consider putting these questions in a John's section
called "Have a question for me".
regards,
julian

[stickman]

I was commenting on the orignal question...

And thaught of a logical way to answer the question moments later...

Feel free to donate money to "my bank account"...
regards,
Joe

[julian1]

I am lost completely

I was commenting on the orignal question...

And thaught of a logical way to answer the question moments later...

Feel free to donate money to "my bank account"...
regards,
Joe

Let me try again:
1.I asked John some questions
2.John does NOT always read every post
3.You can bring your question to his attention

Nothing deep in my comments

[johnyandell]

Stick,

Regarding Nadal's reverse swing and finish. Yes that's what i think. By changing slightly the angle of the racket face he's doing what players do on the serve. Hitting a sidespin component sufficient to curve the ball.

We hope to actually measure this one day by studying shot spot trajectories.

And yeah post for me in my section.