Learning Open Stance and Wiper swing early

[kakashi]

Thank you very much mr Gordon

Thank you very much for reply mr Gordon,

hope we can get to read surprise fact very soon...

Thank you....

[kakashi]

Need desperate help on this issue

Hello expert people here..

I was reading again and again....

And most high performance coach believe that they should focus on arm out.. start finish the racket over the shoulder to get extension.....

Yes I am not an high performance coach, but I believe that finishing the racket over the shoulder and wiper swing is two different path.. i mean one is going forward and one is rotating the body like earth....that is two different movement...

I mean you can still extend the arm with wiper path...
and i believe you can learn from the start...
A lot of coaches believe you need to start traditional swing, and I actually did this but most student got confused when i introduced wiper swing... and most just kept over the shoulder swing even though I told them to make it lower... i mean my point is many students are not too flexible... so does stance.. if i teach close first then they will keep and they hate or can not change to open....
Do you know anybody how Spanish coaches teach Junior players??? do they start with close and over the shoulder???
One pro person told me that when he went to Spain, he saw 8 years old just hitting like Nadal... He said US players get confused when they change to open and lower finish because they weren't learning that way for 1 or 2 years.. and this is sort of mistake I was doing.. i thought everything will "Evolve" but that's did not happen... but teaching from the start actually did help.. i mean they don't get strange.. everything you learn from the start will become very natural.. open and wiper swing.. i have to be very careful about heavy wrist usage, but actually it is not that difficult..... I mean most importantly I see the result... they can actually rally after 2 month of learning and they can hit high ball, side ball, some fast ball.. i mean i see very different from other students I only taught close and over the shoulder.. they hit the wall when i give high and fast wide shots..

You see the picture on federer.. look how much his arm extended.. at first i teach this to my student..after that all you need is to move the racket more up for top spin.. i mean this movement is similar to hitting high baseball pitch....this is totally different from over the shoulder path and i don't know whether traditional swing will evolve to this....


I need help on this......


Thank you so much
big rotation federer.jpg

[10splayer]

While I'm around stating the obvious about the serve toss, I will say the wrist integration on the forehand is something I've looked at a lot recently. I will report my findings in more detail later but have found there is forward hand motion (from wrist joint motion) to varying degrees on the forehand in most cases (more wrist flexion with eastern grips and more ulnar deviation with western grips). This motion is far from passive and is used mostly to control racquet orientation and not so much for racquet head speed (for high level players). How the whole thing works blew my mind - I suspect many here will also be surprised!

Brian,

If you would be so kind. By flexion, as "a source for racquet control" do you mean as a directional device? I've always thought (but could be wrong) that flexion can be used to help direct the ball, as the goal is to get the racquet face aligned to the target. On crosscourt, outside balls for instance, there would be more of a tendency to flex the wrist to get the racquet head out there, than on inside-out shots, for example. Way off?

[kakashi]

This is the drill i do to starter player

batting.jpg

I got this from Nick Bolleteir's article. This is the drill i do with my starter player.. i take them to outside the tennis court.. usually outside the tennis court they have some park..the i really pitch like baseball.. i tell them i am baseball pitcher and you are batter. i tell them hit with open stance.. and they usually hit far.. this is awesome way to start because it shows the correct path of swing i want to teach.. then i tell them.. okay unfortunately, in tennis, we can not hit outside of baseline.. so i tell them.. okay now hit low to high with same swing.. then their ball won't go that far because of spin.. i mean they can't control too well, but
this is wonderful way to start....
I mean even today, there are so many instructors do teach very traditional swing..And I was also doing that till recently and i stopped because of student's slow improvement.. i don't think it is bad, but I see many students get better result with this method... I do not think it is complicated, but I don't think student get this without instructors help. There is not doubt learning this way can be very very risky. many of my student practice with father and came back and hitting with only wrist snap and ball has nothing but spin and they miss hit a lot...
one of the hardest thing and most important thing is to learn how to get correct balance.. if you don't have correct balance then you can not hit open stance and ball will keep hit the fame with no power...and not to mention about foot work...

This way of teaching is very challenging but i find it is very worth doing it...
Student get a lot more consistent and learn how to any type of shots...
any opposing idea??? thank you so much

[BrianGordon]

Brian,

If you would be so kind. By flexion, as "a source for racquet control" do you mean as a directional device? I've always thought (but could be wrong) that flexion can be used to help direct the ball, as the goal is to get the racquet face aligned to the target. On crosscourt, outside balls for instance, there would be more of a tendency to flex the wrist to get the racquet head out there, than on inside-out shots, for example. Way off?

10s-

What the data is showing is that the rate of forward hand rotation from wrist joint action is muscularly modulated for high level players (as opposed to generated for lower skill levels) to control the orientation of the racquet through the contact zone.

In other words, for some players, dynamic effects during the forward swing tend to cause wrist joint to rotate the hand forward - opposing muscles are contracted near contact to allow, yet control the rate of, this rotation and therefore control the orientation of the racquet through the contact zone.

As this orientation is one of the main determinants of shot direction, then by my reading of your observation, you are on the right track - assuming you mean that it is the modulation of the wrist motion (flexion) that is the directional device.

While this is probably interesting to very few, the stroke characteristics (dynamic effects during the forward swing) that set up this scenario are even more interesting (to me).

If you are like me, all of this on its face seems counter-intuitive at first, but will hopefully make more sense when I can set the entire scene properly - the complete story is really very cool if you like this kind of thing - better yet if you can show a young player how to do it which we are working on in S. FL. - BG

[kakashi]

Hello mr. Gordon

Hello mr. Gordon thank you...

i might be wrong, but in simple term.. "hand is rolling and moving forward at same time"

some coach told me forward and close the door nob when you hit....

wrist action should be more like closing the door nob...

what do you think?

thank you very much

[tennis_chiro]

My "Passive Hinge" vs muscularly modulated wrist joint action

10s-

What the data is showing is that the rate of forward hand rotation from wrist joint action is muscularly modulated for high level players (as opposed to generated for lower skill levels) to control the orientation of the racquet through the contact zone.

In other words, for some players, dynamic effects during the forward swing tend to cause wrist joint to rotate the hand forward - opposing muscles are contracted near contact to allow, yet control the rate of, this rotation and therefore control the orientation of the racquet through the contact zone.

As this orientation is one of the main determinants of shot direction, then by my reading of your observation, you are on the right track - assuming you mean that it is the modulation of the wrist motion (flexion) that is the directional device.

While this is probably interesting to very few, the stroke characteristics (dynamic effects during the forward swing) that set up this scenario are even more interesting (to me).

If you are like me, all of this on its face seems counter-intuitive at first, but will hopefully make more sense when I can set the entire scene properly - the complete story is really very cool if you like this kind of thing - better yet if you can show a young player how to do it which we are working on in S. FL. - BG

Perhaps my use of the term passive hinge is not a good way to put it, but what I am trying to say is that the major motors of the forehand do not include the wrist, but the wrist does certainly work to control the racket face in a fine motor movement as we go through the contact area, trying to keep the face of the racket at exactly the angle we want. Most students see the flexed position of the wrist at the end of the follow through and think the wrist is flexing violently through impact to achieve that position. My understanding is that that occurs primarily after the impact. There is some small amount of flexion through impact as the body tries to keep the ball on the strings, but that movement is very small at most until later in the follow through when the wrist releases.

Really dying to see your new treatise of the forehand when it comes out,

don

[10splayer]

Perhaps my use of the term passive hinge is not a good way to put it, but what I am trying to say is that the major motors of the forehand do not include the wrist, but the wrist does certainly work to control the racket face in a fine motor movement as we go through the contact area, trying to keep the face of the racket at exactly the angle we want. Most students see the flexed position of the wrist at the end of the follow through and think the wrist is flexing violently through impact to achieve that position. My understanding is that that occurs primarily after the impact. There is some small amount of flexion through impact as the body tries to keep the ball on the strings, but that movement is very small at most until later in the follow through when the wrist releases.

Really dying to see your new treatise of the forehand when it comes out,

don

As usual,much better explanation of my thoughts. But yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. The flexion can, and is used to orient the racquet face to achieve a certain line of shot, but not used/perceived as a racquet head speed catalyst.

[10splayer]

10s-

What the data is showing is that the rate of forward hand rotation from wrist joint action is muscularly modulated for high level players (as opposed to generated for lower skill levels) to control the orientation of the racquet through the contact zone.

In other words, for some players, dynamic effects during the forward swing tend to cause wrist joint to rotate the hand forward - opposing muscles are contracted near contact to allow, yet control the rate of, this rotation and therefore control the orientation of the racquet through the contact zone.

As this orientation is one of the main determinants of shot direction, then by my reading of your observation, you are on the right track - assuming you mean that it is the modulation of the wrist motion (flexion) that is the directional device.

While this is probably interesting to very few, the stroke characteristics (dynamic effects during the forward swing) that set up this scenario are even more interesting (to me).

If you are like me, all of this on its face seems counter-intuitive at first, but will hopefully make more sense when I can set the entire scene properly - the complete story is really very cool if you like this kind of thing - better yet if you can show a young player how to do it which we are working on in S. FL. - BG

Thanks Brian,

I learn something every time you sit down to the computer.

[kakashi]

Thanks

Hello thank you everyone

"Wrist usage" is a lot more complicated that what we imagine...

This is the one of the reason why one point of my teaching.. i just taught student to high thorough the ball, so I don't have to deal with complication of wrist.... However, lately I find the solution to this puzzle....

Actually how I found was I was working a lot on "Feel" we don't talk too much about the game of "Feel" I was really focusing on try to get the feel of "Spin" brushing feeling.... and in order to do this, your arm has to be very very relax and when you are relax it is easier for arm to extend... even you use wrist action. my arm went forward and this allow me to hit the ball very well.. even against the hard hitter... i used to had very hard time dealing with fast pace players because of intense wrist usage, so i change to flat.. and I was able to hit the ball well, but ball kept flying out and was too tough to hit under the pressure.... so after I worked on the feel, i was able to hit the ball very clean with spin...

I have done lots and lots of mini tennis.... we talk about Federer has great feel around the net.. i mean he can do anything.. he can hit soft, mid soft hard, depend on situation that is call feel... most of recreational player just can hit soft or hard.. and this is dangerous since tennis require so many different type of shots...

any thoughts??

thank you

[kakashi]

How do you pick?

I do not know exactly who teaches tennis here and who don't....

I mean .. my simple question is how would you pick how you play or how you teach the tennis???

I mean tennis is one of the most complicated sports.. There are too many different styles you can play.. yes golf has different swing, but when you make contact it is same.....

Anyhow, my question is how do you pick the style? or which coach's style do you model after???

I mean to be honest.... I would love the way mr. Lansdorp teach, but in reality almost impossible for me to make good tennis player with his style.. Most players come only 1 or 2 times a week.. majority do not practice..
If you ask them to drive the ball, ball goes everywhere and they don't put a lot of effort....

I was just wondering how coaches or players do pick the style of play?