Learning Open Stance and Wiper swing early

[kakashi]

Hello everyone how are you.

Any coaches here or player can help me on this question.

Well, this is what I see from over 10 years of teaching.
Does not apply 100%, but this is what i saw.

Close stance does not evolve to open stance, I mean if student learn only close stance or emphasized on close stance then they virtually hit or try to hit every shot with close stance. If this happens then they will have hard time hitting high ball and faster wide shots. Instead teaching open stance right off the start, I see much better result. Going from open to close to actually a lot easier. And I find myself people learn open stance on forehand side a lot easier. It seems like it comes very natural. Only thing they have hard time is to keep weight on right foot. with open stance it is much easier to get off balance, but if you learn how to stay in balance then you will be able to hit so many different shots.

Another one is learning wiper swing early.. I also notice that finishing the racket over the shoulder does not evolve to wiper swing.. I believe they are two different swing. One is more like golf and other one is baseball swing.. finishing racket up is more going forward and wiper swing is more like spinning... I find myself teaching wiper swing, if their body is ready, i mean if student have strength then they can learn this early also. This wiper swing allow us to hit many different shot, low mid, high ball with comfort. finishing over the shoulder make it bit difficult for high ball, and not to mention wiper swing get us more top spin and just making wiper more forward and you can hit little more flatter... So I believe learning wiper swing early isn't bad idea after all.. I just have to watch their elbow is pointing to the net and make sure rotate the shoulder completely.

Finally, after they get technique, it is important to emphasize on racket head speed. Since wiper swing get so much topspin, if you do not have racket speed then you do not generate the speed on the shots. It is so obvious we see so much racket head speed compare to 20 years ago tennis. equipment has changed, but also technique has also changed and that's most of pro i would say 90% of pros do use some kind of wiper swing and it allow them to hit hard and still make it in.
I also discovered that developing physical department isn't that difficult than mental aspect. if I ask student to hit the ball flat (i used to do) then they never get confidence under the pressure, but asking them to increase the racket head speed isn't that difficult. they can swing heavier racket to accomplish this.....

so my conclusion
1) learning open stance from the start
2) learning wiper swing soon as ready
3) learning racket head speed or emphasize on racket head speed
4) Focus on physical training.. lots of off court training, soccer, or sprint, shadow tennis, swing without ball....

Please criticize me... Thank you ...

[gzhpcu]

Makes sense to me kakashi.

[kakashi]

Thank you

Thank you very much for your comment.

also I was wondering if anybody failed with this using this method.

It seems like if you do not learn open stance or wiper correctly, it cause big disasters.

those who are learning wiper swing check
1) elbow points to net after the shot
2) be careful elbow will not point to side fence
3) use wrist action to speed up racket head speed but not to break your wrist very soon.
4) put racket to next to left arm.


open stance
1) learn to hit with one leg.. right leg only. you will learn how to keep your weight on right foot
2) feel like sitting down on the chair while you are hitting
3) learn how to wait for slow ball with open stance.. many people let go the weight since ball is coming to slow...


criticize me.. any opposite comment welcome.. i want real personal experience so i can improve my teaching .. thank you very much

[10splayer]

Thank you very much for your comment.

but I was wondering if anybody failed with this using this method.

It seems like if you do not learn open stance or wiper correctly, it cause big disasters.

those who are learning wiper swing check
1) elbow points to net after the shot
2) be careful elbow will not point to side fence
3) use wrist action to speed up racket head speed but not to break your wrist very soon.
4) put racket to next to left arm.


open stance
1) learn to hit with one leg.. right leg only. you will learn how to keep your weight on right foot
2) feel like sitting down on the chair while you are hitting
3) learn how to wait for slow ball with open stance.. many people let go the weight since ball is coming to slow...


criticize me.. any opposite comment welcome.. i want real personal experience so i can improve my teaching .. thank you very much

You might want to read any groundstroke article by Kerry Mitchell, as you would have an advocate in this thinking. (me too for the most part) The greatest benefit is the almost natural proper alignment it promotes. And poor alignment absolutely hamstrings development.

The one thing you have to take note of though, is that the student achieves some separation angle between the hip and shoulder lines in the prep.

[kakashi]

Thank you 10splayer

thank you very much for your commnet 10splayer

I will take a look at the article. thank you.

Can you please explain to me this little more in detail or examples?

thank you so much

"The one thing you have to take note of though, is that the student achieves some separation angle between the hip and shoulder lines in the prep."



As complicated and dangerous as teaching tennis (to me it is)

if coach is not teaching tennis correctly, students' tennis career can be destroyed in 2 months..

I used to teach my student to just step in every shots and finish the racket up. I thought this method can't go wrong. I mean Standard way of teaching.

However, I notice after 1 year of tennis or when level gets better then their game started to break down. their returning serve got problem, high ball, wide fast ball, short and low ball.. they are afraid to hit the ball since ball clear the net very low.

Then I decided to take lessons from high performance coaches and guess what, they teach open stance right off the start and also they emphasize on lower finish as well..

Then I applied this to my student and IT WORKS... i mean any level of people.. (exception of 5 years old or those who has been playing tennis for so long with different style--these are tough to change)

I mean for me, as a instructor what works for student is my priority. And believe or not pro's swing will work for recreational people as well.

A lot of people believe that "oh we should not copy pro, it will mess up your swing" and i thought the same but now i changed completely after seeing my student's performance, but I have to make sure explain to student or parents why I am doing this boring open stance drill or boring running drill, because it help for the future..


This became so clear when i ask my girl student to hit with my boy student when I ask girl student to use close stance to hit boy shots. When she uses close stance, she just can't hit any of boy's shots. Especially high spinny shots. Then i tell her hit with open stance, then she gets the ball without moving back... and i was very happy to see that....

Yes it will take while to get Open stance correct, but it is million dollar investment.

[kakashi]

Thank you very much i read artcle

Thank you very much i read article of Kerry Mitchell

And if anybody can help me.....

Since we use open stance.. and I like to teach keep weight on right foot first, but I also believe just like stuff in article, kicking or moving forward with right foot is very important. Of course when shot is coming fast you can't even move your body forward much, but when there is time you can kick just like kicking soccer ball to shit the body weight forward and I remember one coach has talked about it...

***It is just like step into the ball with left foot, but instead you do this with right foot from open stance position. On youtube you can watch Djorkovic is giving tennis lesson and he said when i want to produce more spin, i put more weight on right foot and use more wrist work, but if i have time I move forward so i can get more power. And this is what i am talking about . Mr Djorkovic did not talk about but he is actually moving forward with his right foot, but actually his forward motion is coming from right foot kick.. Am i right? or wrong?.....***

Can anybody please help me.....

[10splayer]

thank you very much for your commnet 10splayer

I will take a look at the article. thank you.

Can you please explain to me this little more in detail or examples?

thank you so much

"The one thing you have to take note of though, is that the student achieves some separation angle between the hip and shoulder lines in the prep."

As complicated and dangerous as teaching tennis (to me it is)

if coach is not teaching tennis correctly, students' tennis career can be destroyed in 2 months..

I used to teach my student to just step in every shots and finish the racket up. I thought this method can't go wrong. I mean Standard way of teaching.

However, I notice after 1 year of tennis or when level gets better then their game started to break down. their returning serve got problem, high ball, wide fast ball, short and low ball.. they are afraid to hit the ball since ball clear the net very low.

Then I decided to take lessons from high performance coaches and guess what, they teach open stance right off the start and also they emphasize on lower finish as well..

Then I applied this to my student and IT WORKS... i mean any level of people.. (exception of 5 years old or those who has been playing tennis for so long with different style--these are tough to change)

I mean for me, as a instructor what works for student is my priority. And believe or not pro's swing will work for recreational people as well.

A lot of people believe that "oh we should not copy pro, it will mess up your swing" and i thought the same but now i changed completely after seeing my student's performance, but I have to make sure explain to student or parents why I am doing this boring open stance drill or boring running drill, because it help for the future..


This became so clear when i ask my girl student to hit with my boy student when I ask girl student to use close stance to hit boy shots. When she uses close stance, she just can't hit any of boy's shots. Especially high spinny shots. Then i tell her hit with open stance, then she gets the ball without moving back... and i was very happy to see that....

Yes it will take while to get Open stance correct, but it is million dollar investment.

"Separation angle" would be the difference between the hip coil and shoulder coil. Since the stance/hips are more "open" in the stance, the shoulders must turn further (90+degrees) in the preparation. The tendency can be for the shoulders to not turn far enough because the hips are open. This must be monitored.

[bottle]

You ask for criticism, kakashi, but I'm not going to provide it, I think what you're saying sounds solid. The fellow who might offer an opposite view is Jimmy Arias, one of the two main broadcasters for Tennis Channel during the Paris Open, who said then that he would never teach a wiper to a 4.0 or 4.5 player. So I guess the wiper with Jimmy's students starts at 5.0 . This is pretty interesting to me. The other broadcaster, Ted Robinson, seemed astounded, thinking no doubt of all the players around the world who might be about to turn the coverage off.

You'd have to find a way to communicate with Jimmy Arias, I think. Might not be as hard as we think. He was a very promising player back in the time of
Ivan Lendl, hit huge topspin with a towering follow through on the backhand side, but later, in middle age, I think, revised that backhand to hit through the ball more.

I've been recently influenced by a famous teaching pro who thinks tennis is best learned through opposites and irony. Following that advice, let's teach
ourselves to hit both with a wiper and without one and then choose one or
keep both.

[kakashi]

Thank you very much

Thank you very much 10splayer and bottle

10splayer now i get it.. I believe that is importance of left hand comes in. Pointing left hand to right fence is very important for this wiper swing.
Funny enough, I was so against left hand usage just few months ago and i owe apology for moderator for that. For wiper swing this is necessity and indicate that you have coiled your body...

bottle. thank you very much for your information.. well, wait till 5.0 to change to wiper??
From my experience changing the thing after you have done for over 1 or 2 years is extremely difficult. i mean sometimes impossible.. you get frustrated and this can destroy your game in hurry... this is mistake i made.. i was keep changing thing around and one day my student told me " can we just work on one thing?" and i was very embarrassed... it is not easy for advance players.. say ask Nadal to hit through the ball every single shots and see how goes... I believe his ball will fly out to the fence...I mean changing mechanic is so tough..
And another thing i learn is that knowing too many different way isn't too good.
I mean different swing. Okay you should bring racket for this shot and make it lower for this shots just did not work for me.. believe me i tried this and what happened was they got confused....
The wiper swing will take care all of the swing.. high ball, mid, low ball.. you can even hit flatter.. you watch Federer hit high ball still wiper swing but wiper goes more forward, just like Soderling does also....


Watch Pete sampras for example.. I watched him many many times, but I don't see him using wiper swing for top spin, what he did was to reverse the swing to replace this wiper swing. But i believe teaching wiper would be bit dangerous.. I am very afraid students may use it every single shots.. well, maybe in 20 years, every players might be hitting like Nadal, never know....

So, key is to learn correct. I mean responsibility of instructors are huge.
if we do not know how to teach correct open stance or correct wiper then tennis game is over. It can go down in hurry, but if you learn these stuff correctly, it will open up the huge window for tennis.. I mean you can possibly
able to play higher level.

Just like boris becker said it is hard to get rid of the habit you get when you are 8... so how you learn is such a key...

if Pete sampras has changed to wiper swing during pro tour, would he be able to hit like Nadal? I doubt it... In fact he did not even try that.. I am very sure he was aware of how spanish player hit...


This is bit off truck, but one of the reason why mr. Landsdorp is such a successful coach is that he has standardized way he teach . He wanted to his students to drive the ball. And he insisted at it... In fact all of his students did play way they learned during pro career... They learned that swing from the very very start. We can see Sampras hitting through the ball when he was 9.
And also look at Spain.. most spanish players do play very very similar style and swing. Do they came from same coach? of course not. But since all the coaches know that they will be playing lots of clay court tournament so they prepare the their stroke and mentality to clay court.. I believe here is big standard here.... if you learn one thing from early age you will be very good at.. We know Rafa hit two hands around 11 then switch it one hand, but as you can see his backhand is very similar to his forehand.. i don't think he was driving the ball until 11...

I think there are many coaches, including myself, still teaching very basic style of tennis... I mean most people develop their swing by watching their idols.. if students do not watch anything then swing will stay as it is for rest of life. Apple will never change to orange after 10 years...

Please give me opposing comment if you have any.. so i can improve my teaching.. if anybody know how to get good wiper swing or article about it please share with me please...

thank you very much

[kakashi]

Does Traditional Swing help Modern swing?

hello can anybody ask this question for me??

there are many instructors do believe that you should learn traditional swing first before we do anything else... I mean through the ball and finish high...

I had this one student.. who insisted to work this swing with me almost a year... And I was okay with it... make story short, he gave up due to inconsistency. Now he wants to learn more spin, so i introduced wiper swing, but having hard time learning it... well, my one regret i have for this student is that if I was more rigid about wiper swing, I could have taught him the wiper swing right off the start. now he has to start everything over....

I would say traditional swing is good.. it is easy to learn and easy to hit, but because of more forward motion, the tennis ball travel with fast and lower trajectory. He said he was not brave enough to hit this shot under the pressure.

I believe i have stated, i do not think traditional swing will help you to get better wiper swing, i mean if you look the path it is totally different.. one is moving forward and one is spinning.. like one is baseball pitcher throwing to catcher.. and one is throwing to first basemen.. i mean it is different..

I asked many coaches about this.. how this traditional swing help for wiper swing and they said "you get more extension of arm" yes I do believe this is important, but with wiper swing you can extend your arm by making bigger wiper swing...

my conclusion. i don't think you need or you should learn traditional swing unless you want to hit like that rest of your life.. I see mr. landsdorp showing little kids wiper swing. (now he teaches this way, you can see that in youtube)
Right now I am very rigid about wiper and semi open stance.. I teach virtually everybody this right off the start.. but i teach forward wiper first then go more sharper. I do believe Federer or Djorkovic has very nice shot trajectory. Not like Nadal but not like Soderling.. Not too spiny or not too flat... Too much spin or too flat is just too difficult for most of us.. huge spin require great physical espect, but flat one require lots of confidence and mental toughness and which is also difficult for most players. But hitting with some spin with some wrist action isn't too difficult for most people.....

opposing comments are very much welcome.. thank you

[kakashi]

Finally Wrist Usage

finally, before I stop posing stuff.. hope people can help this hot subject...

And yes I did read moderator's article of myth of wrist...

And yes no doubt I am still struggling with this issue..

Wrist or none wrist???

From experience, wrist usage is very important. without wrist usage I can't speed up the racket head speed or put spin on the ball...

I am not professional but swinging the racket with wrist does help me very much.. soon as racket head goes below the tennis ball, i use wrist action to bring racket to next to left shoulder...

I do not like to use work "Wrist SNAP" but I like to say close the racket with wrist...when you use the wris snap then you get violent wrist action and this cause the swing to get very short...i would like to have very relax swing with wrist action...so I like to tell student "close the racket with wrist and when you hit spin make sure FEEL the brush" some reason if you are relax it is easier to feel the ball and hit the ball harder and also even you use the wrist you get very nice long swing.....

today i was at park and did some experiment.. I hit two way.. one is relax and hit and other one is try to hit very hard... guess what I was able to hit the ball further with relax arm.. i guess when arm is relaxed you can increase your racket head speed a lot more... and it is very much easier to feel the shots and it is important for tennis

I am very sure I get more opposing comment on this, but I do believe we should use wrist action to make racket head speed and more spin....

Can you also go youtube and look Djorkovic's tennis lesson and he said when he wants to produce more spin, he said he use more wrist work....

Please help me on this subject... this is very important.. again if i don't use wrist action or snap then I can't increase my racket head speed...

please someone enlighten me...

[kakashi]

Wrist Part II.. can you help me

federer wrist.jpg

can you take a look at federer's right elbow.. it stays in same position...
actually you can do this yourself.. you hold your right elbow with left hand.. and see what part of arm you need to make half a circle... well, for me it takes wrist action to do this...also you can try hold wrist angle and do this.. (without releasing wrist angle) you will see your right elbow move up...
so what i mean is there is wrist release is happening... also you can try "Snap the wrist" then you will see only wrist will rotate so this is also won't work...
More or less relax wrist release is good term.. for me closing racket...

please help me on this.. thank you so much

[gzhpcu]

What is being done is: the arm is relaxed, the wrist laid back at the end of the swing, then the arm begins to come forward, but the racket head lags behind (stretch-shorten cycle), this leads to acceleration of the racket when it finally comes forward.

[kakashi]

Thank you

thank you phil, can you tell me more about wrist movement?

what is actually happening here?

i do believe action has started with wrist action, but very very relax arm and wrist
i mean having relax arm and wrist is so key to get longer and faster swing...

Djorkoiv also mentioned this "arm needs to be as relax as possible so you can follow through better"

by the way he demonstrate two shots.. one is more attacking shot and one is spin.. as we notice he still uses wiper swing for both... just different path.. how convenient this swing is....

thank you

[gzhpcu]

Kakashi,
Try watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AMJp...layer_embedded

Might help....