Serve toss question....

[gzhpcu]

Here is a side view of Soderling's serve. Interesting that he does not move forward, only up... The toss is barely in front of the baseline, his tossing arm goes forward, not sideways in the rainbow movement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a56pvP1i6x8

[uspta146749877]

Soderling

Here is a side view of Soderling's serve. Interesting that he does not move forward, only up... The toss is barely in front of the baseline, his tossing arm goes forward, not sideways in the rainbow movement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a56pvP1i6x8

Someone put a post about sending a letter to a Soderling's father.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1639&page=2

post #19.
You may find it interesting.
regards,
julian

[gzhpcu]

Thing is though, he still manages to serve fast, yet he only goes up and the toss is barely in front of the baseline.

Vic Braden says "The harder hitters in pro tennis strike the ball about four to five feet in front of the baseline. That means they will be pulled into the court when striking the ball."

[uspta146749877]

Don

Thing is though, he still manages to serve fast, yet he only goes up and the toss is barely in front of the baseline.

Vic Braden says "The harder hitters in pro tennis strike the ball about four to five feet in front of the baseline. That means they will be pulled into the court when striking the ball."

I think Don would be an excellent moderator here

[gzhpcu]

Is only going up on the hit really important? Does going forward have only a minor influence on the speed of the ball? Do I really only toss well forward if I am going to the net?

[gzhpcu]

Look at Kuerten:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[uspta146749877]

Brian and John are best experts to ask

Is only going up on the hit really important? Does going forward have only a minor influence on the speed of the ball? Do I really only toss well forward if I am going to the net?

Brian and John are best experts to ask.
Try

[gzhpcu]

Actually, each of us should just try it out ourselves. Theory is one thing, praxis is another. (The proof is in the pudding).

[uspta990770809]

Careful

Actually, each of us should just try it out ourselves. Theory is one thing, praxis is another. (The proof is in the pudding).

Phil,
just be careful if you decide to try out Soderling's service motion, maybe have an ambulance on the side of the court.

That slow motion above of his serve is really fascinating. He has TREMENDOUS leg drive, but I'm not sure it is doing much for him except getting him a little further up in the air to meet the ball. Certainly, he generates a lot of energy, but with such a limited hip turn, I wonder how much of that energy actually gets translated into racket head speed towards the target.

Soderling definitely has a good serve, but he may be leaving a lot on the table. Someone 6' 5" has a reach with the racket at least 8" more than the average six-footer, and that's before the jump. Imagine serving with the net about 4" lower. That would significantly effect your "acceptance window".

I, for one, was a little surprised when I did my little math problem earlier in the thread that the contact point was that far forward. But I think the facts stand. Now realize that the ball travels about 80 feet to the returner and for the forward toss it is about 4 feet less. Now imagine that the receiver has to take the ball 4 feet earlier. By tossing that ball into the court, the server is taking that 4 feet away from the receiver. Soderling is probably forfeiting about 3 feet of that potential advantage. That's like making the 125 mph serve into 131 mph.

As far as Soderling going forward more, he just doesn't have the agility and mobility to serve and volley on any kind of a frequent basis. He can finish up front, but he doesn't want to have to defend a pass on anything less than an overwhelming approach. That may be one reason he stays so far back: he would be slow in recovering back behind the baseline. You can point to serve and volleyers like Isner and Karlovic, but as slow as they may be, they learned to serve and volley when they were young. It's a very tough rhythm to learn after you are 17. (And it took Karlovic till about 28 to learn it!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzhpcu
Is only going up on the hit really important? Does going forward have only a minor influence on the speed of the ball? Do I really only toss well forward if I am going to the net?
Brian and John are best experts to ask.

John and Brian have already answered most of these questions in their articles and I think they might refer us there, but I wouldn't mind hearing some clarification on those points.

But most of all, Phil, as a chiropractor, I have to recommend against you trying Soderling's motion.

don

[uspta146749877]

For Don

It would be a good idea to bring your post above to attention of John

[gzhpcu]

OK, I will try and summarize:

The toss is a determining factor in setting up the serve motion. The body motion is affected by the toss:

What I would like to see is a systematic article describing the relevant factors, for example:

(x,y,z coordinates)

1)Height of the toss:
1a)minimal toss -> fast concerted movement, no trophy position, ball is still at impact (longer, but no free topspin)

1b)High toss -> slower windup, even a pause in the trophy position, results in more topspin because the ball drops


2)How much into court:

2a) 3-5 feet in front: body lean, shorter path to receiver, balance implications, flatter shot
2b) on the baseline: no body lean, (going higher up?), more topspin

3) How much to the left, right or middle:

3a) middle: flat serve
3b) left: more hitting across and up - topspin/slice
3c) right: more hitting around - slice

Of course things get complicated because you need to define a matrix with a combination of effects (which I wouldn't mind seeing...)

[gzhpcu]

It would be a good idea to bring your post above to attention of John

John responded here...
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...&postcount=833

[uspta990770809]

Three dimensional matrix?!#?

OK, I will try and summarize:


Of course things get complicated because you need to define a matrix with a combination of effects (which I wouldn't mind seeing...)

Phil,

You do realize don't you, that that is at least a three-dimensional matrix and if it is to approach reality, it would have to be at least 4 or 5 dimensional??

don

[gzhpcu]

Phil,

You do realize don't you, that that is at least a three-dimensional matrix and if it is to approach reality, it would have to be at least 4 or 5 dimensional??

don

Don,

Let's just go for all the 2 x 2 x 3 = 12 possible combinations

[uspta146749877]

Brian Gordon

John responded here...
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...&postcount=833

I would advise to speak to Brian Gordon.
I do NOT know however how to get in touch with him?
E-mail? John may help