Serve toss question....

[gzhpcu]

Just wondering how far into the court do you toss the ball for a topspin/slice serve? I have an old Vic Braden tennis video, and he (in addition to the minimal toss...), also advocates throwing the ball really well in front into the court. Looks like between 3-4 feet...

[uspta990770809]

Just wondering how far into the court do you toss the ball for a topspin/slice serve? I have an old Vic Braden tennis video, and he (in addition to the minimal toss...), also advocates throwing the ball really well in front into the court. Looks like between 3-4 feet...

I haven't even looked to check yet, but it can't be much more than a foot in front of where your left foot comes down (in the modern serve) and that's rarely much more than a foot, so 2 feet would be a lot. Some of the doubles players serving and volleying might get a little further; I know Nestor almost falls down because he's reaching so far in. (He's 6'3" tall. Contact is almost 10 feet up. With a little trig and a picture from the side, you can figure out how far he is in at contact, Phil!) But realize, you have to start with the ball behind you to learn the wrist action. You have to really have the feel of the hit down before you start to put that ball out front. Then you get pace to go with the spin.

don

[gzhpcu]

I know I am retro....

but here is Lew Hoad:



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Impact looks over 2 feet ahead to me, almost 3 feet...

[gzhpcu]

P.S. Am not talking kick serve, am discussing the toss for the first serve....

[uspta990770809]

OK, I'll play along

P.S. Am not talking kick serve, am discussing the toss for the first serve....

I know I have other things I should be doing but this is fun to do without the trig book. I checked the angle at pretty close to 60 degrees. Don't need my sliderule to know the ratio the two sides of the triangle is 2:1 and the hypoteneuse (haven't used that in a while) is square root of 5, about 2.24. I am Hoad's height and can reach almost 10 feet to contact point, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt (plus he's keeping one foot on the ground).So 10 feet is 2.24 times the distance he is reaching into the court. So we are talking about reaching into the court 10/2.24 = 4.46 feet. Wow. Is that possible? Certainly not on a second serve (your first question was about a topspin/slice serve). I'd sure like to see a picture that shows exactly where Isner is serving from. That 10 foot hypoteneuse is probably 12 feet for him with his jump. But I don't think he leans in as much as Hoad, although he does serve and volley a lot. And where does Battistone serve from? We need some better data.

Anybody?
don

[stotty]

I'd love to know how Edberg compares with others with his ball toss. Watched him at Wimbledon years ago...2nd serve seemed a long way out in front too...and he did get into the net awful quick...as quick as Sedgman.

[gzhpcu]

You know that is what I thought too, yet when you look here, it seems he tosses it far ahead because he jumps so much forward, but he hits it behind his head. And, oh yes, look at how high his toss is!



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[uspta146749877]

Leaning forward

[QUOTE=uspta990770809;12262]I know I have other things I should be doing but this is fun to do without the trig book. I checked the angle at pretty close to 60 degrees. Don't need my sliderule to know the ratio the two sides of the triangle is 2:1 and the hypoteneuse (haven't used that in a while) is square root of 5, about 2.24. I am Hoad's height and can reach almost 10 feet to contact point, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt (plus he's keeping one foot on the ground).So 10 feet is 2.24 times the distance he is reaching into the court. So we are talking about reaching into the court 10/2.24 = 4.46 feet. Wow. Is that possible? Certainly not on a second serve (your first question was about a topspin/slice serve). I'd sure like to see a picture that shows exactly where Isner is serving from. That 10 foot hypoteneuse is probably 12 feet for him with his jump. But I don't think he leans in as much as Hoad, although he does serve and volley a lot. And where does Battistone serve from? We need some better data.

Anybody?
don[/QUOTE

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/your_strokes/2006/paul_goldstein_serve_part2_5_01_06/paul_goldstein_serve_part2_5_01_06.html

The fourth picture from a bottom is of interest

[uspta990770809]

lost art

You know that is what I thought too, yet when you look here, it seems he tosses it far ahead because he jumps so much forward, but he hits it behind his head. And, oh yes, look at how high his toss is!



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I can't think of anyone who was that big and that fast going forward that much, maybe Rafter and, of course, Pancho Gonzalez. Edberg had a great second serve, but, for a guy his size, his first serve was just average. I never saw Sedgeman.

don

[gzhpcu]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/your_strokes/2006/paul_goldstein_serve_part2_5_01_06/paul_goldstein_serve_part2_5_01_06.html

The fourth picture from a bottom is of interest

In respect to that article, it says that Goldstein should have his torso more upright after impact.

Plagenhoef, however, says:


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An angled torso....

[uspta146749877]

Benefits of tossing forward

Summarizing a discussion
there are three possible benefits of tossing MORE foreward:

1.gained distance to a net

2.increased speed of a ball

3.an increased angle of an attack ( for a lack of better word)

They have to be judged against potential of :

1.decreased percentage of serve

2.problems with balance

3.increased recovery time if planning to come back to a back to a baseline

It has to be judged against:

1.physical capabilities of a player in question
2.a potential cost of a different biomechanics of a serve

[gzhpcu]

I agree with all of the above, but why decreased percentage of serve? You are close to the net, seems the acceptance window increases....

[uspta146749877]

Landing far in a court

I agree with all of the above, but why decreased percentage of serve? You are close to the net, seems the acceptance window increases....

We have a habbit of jumping like a grasshopper from one topic to another
(do they have grasshoppers in Switzerland ?).

Landing far in a court imposes some mental difficulties -would I be able to come back to a baseline on time?
Mental problems influence performance ( no pun attempted).
Human brains do NOT always think in a sequential way-i.e you cannot say:
"I will serve first and will worry later whether i can back on time".

Even playing doubles imposes some mental barriers-"I should NOT let my partner
down so it is better to serve in a conservative way".

[stotty]

Those photos of Edberg are a revelation. When I watched him live, all I seemed to see was hitting the ball way out in front. I never realized he was launching forward and almost overtaking his own ball toss.

I never liked his serve...looked weird...but he floated in so quick behind it and cut down his opponents angles. Sedgman apparently was even quicker.

[gzhpcu]

Sampras seems to toss pretty far ahead...



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