Interactive Forum October 2010: Mardy Fish: Serves

[johnyandell]

Since Mardy Fish's physical transformation and summer resurgence, we've gotten many requests to see his strokes, and especially his serve. A few teaching pros have suggested his serve as a great model for club players. So here it is, a first serve and a second, in our stunning new high speed hi def footage. Tell us what you see when you view his motion at 500 frames a second!

Mardy Fish: 1st Serve Ad



Mardy Fish: 2nd Serve Ad

[johnyandell]

Quicktime versions

Mardy Fish: First Serve Ad



Mardy Fish: Second Serve Ad

[stotty]

Looks tricky for a club player to model his serve on Fish's; with such a delay with the racket arm versus throwing arm. The path of the racket arm is also hard to correctly copy.

I just love the serve, though. It's a treat to see slowed down to that extent, and in such clarity. Be great to see his serve from other angles as well.

[gzhpcu]

Looking at the racquet position during the 2nd serve at and after impact, seems to me that it is so angled for a slice serve.

[stroke]

It looks to me that Mardy's 2nd serve is a kick serve from the contact position.

[gzhpcu]

Look at the racket face position, however...

[llll]

Look at the racket face position, however...

if you look at his raquet/ arm path he seems to be going more left to right and up like a kick serve

[slam]

foot placement

Why is Mardy standing 3 inches behind the baseline? He doesnt drag his feet forward, like some players do before they make their jump upwards, so he's just giving away higher angles over the net by standing so far behind the baseline.

Since Mardy Fish's physical transformation and summer resurgence, we've gotten many requests to see his strokes, and especially his serve. A few teaching pros have suggested his serve as a great model for club players. So here it is, a first serve and a second, in our stunning new high speed hi def footage. Tell us what you see when you view his motion at 500 frames a second!

Mardy Fish: 1st Serve Ad



Mardy Fish: 2nd Serve Ad

[bmonsour]

Very surprised at the lag of the racquet arm

Having heard "down together, up together" over the many years, I was amazed to see that Mardy's racquet does not start it's upward path until the ball is about a foot out of his tossing hand. Having said that, he appears to synchronize everything quite well. I expect that's due to a higher than typical toss.

It really is great to see this in super slo mo as it's so hard to tell what's happening on television.

[hotshots]

Not for a club player

i think it works well for a Pro player who has developed their muscles around their shoulder for strength.
i would never to teach that way to a club player. to me it has no rhythm. Marty leaves the racket arm down too long and is playing catch up. Club players would find this hard to get their timing.
Rog, Sam Stosur & Serena's serve's are good role models from my viewpoint for club players.

[johnyandell]

hot shots--have to agree with you there. That is a lot of lag isn't it. Doug Eng has good analysis of that variation if you haven't read it.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/doug_eng/the_three_service_rhythms/index.html

[llll]

i think it works well for a Pro player who has developed their muscles around their shoulder for strength.
i would never to teach that way to a club player. to me it has no rhythm. Marty leaves the racket arm down too long and is playing catch up. Club players would find this hard to get their timing.
Rog, Sam Stosur & Serena's serve's are good role models from my viewpoint for club players.

dont be be so closed minded about club players.
they can surprise you if you give them a chance

[uspta990770809]

Not as much lag as you think

i think it works well for a Pro player who has developed their muscles around their shoulder for strength.
i would never to teach that way to a club player. to me it has no rhythm. Marty leaves the racket arm down too long and is playing catch up. Club players would find this hard to get their timing.
Rog, Sam Stosur & Serena's serve's are good role models from my viewpoint for club players.

There is not really as much lag there as you think. What Mardy does really well is work the "shoulder-over-shoulder" action. When you look at the relationship of his hands to the ground, left is up and right is down. But when you look at them relative to a line through his shoulders and elbow to elbow, there is only a slight lag of the right hand relative to the left. When your students start to learn the serve, they are not going to have that extreme tilt to the shoulders. They will start (in most cases, not all) with just a slight upward tilt to the shoulders as they release and complete the toss. They probably won't get that extreme shoulder angle until they have a pretty good feel for the rhythm of the toss and the serve. In fact, working to keep the arms completely level and synchronized at the beginning can work a little against the beginner learning the serve because they will lose the stretch reflex of the "pro drop" John talks about in his new article. You actually want the racket to lag just a bit coming into that "pro drop" position so it has some momentum and doesn't get to stop; otherwise the racket head stays too much behind the back and doesn't swing over onto the path to the target through the ball.

Anyway, just try looking at it again from the perspective of a line through Mardy's clavicles/shoulders/elbows and consider that the horizon. Then that lag won't look so extreme. You can say the same thing about Pete's serve. Take a look.

But no, don't try to start the club player out with this extreme shoulder action. But don't think they can't get there eventually. It just won't be quite as smooth or go quite as fast. But eventually, they should try to incorporate that shoulder over shoulder action to improve their service...when they are ready.

don brosseau

[makhan67]

The delayed action on the part of the hitting arm-racket then forces him to speed up through contact. That's the benefit which I see from this.

Great super slow mo action.

Congratulations, John once again.

You are our leader.

Mahboob Khan
MKTA, Islamabad Club Coaching Center
Islamabad, Pakistan

[stroke]

I was watching Michael Llodra, who served so well in the Paris Masters this week, and he seemed to have an almost identical motion to Fish. He has a very explosive delayed after toss arm action.