Unit Turn, Load, Swing Start Questions

[ralph]

Should a player just have to have the unit turn completed by the time the ball bounces on his side of the court or should one be fully loaded at the bounce? Is it correct to think that one needs to start the swing at the bounce from the load on most fast balls? Just a couple of questions that I have been thinking about. Thanks for any advice.

Ralph

[llll]

Should a player just have to have the unit turn completed by the time the ball bounces on his side of the court or should one be fully loaded at the bounce? Is it correct to think that one needs to start the swing at the bounce from the load on most fast balls? Just a couple of questions that I have been thinking about. Thanks for any advice.

Ralph

by the time the ball bounces the unit turn should be complete. the timing of when you start your foward swing would change based on speed of ball distance from bounce to contact point .
for example a ball you take on the rise vs a ball you let fall into your hittlng zone would have different timings relative to the bounce.
thats how i see it . curious what others have to say

[stotty]

Interesting topic. I am surprised to see so few responses.

After studying Agassi in the stroke archive, the unit turn seems to happen early on in a lot of cases...often early during a run to a ball. Loading seems to commence a split second prior to the bounce, but only reaching the full loaded position after the bounce.

I have only studied a handful of clips but this is how it seems to work. Anyway the answers are in the archive. I suggest you spend 20 minutes taking a look. The stroke archive is a great resource.

[ralph]

Thanks for your response. My own thinking is that on slow balls one has time to go from the unit turn, to the load, and then to the forward swing. On hard hit balls it seems that one would have to be in the load and then start the swing at the bounce because one would not be so rushed. Also, when picking up balls on the rise, it seems one has to shorten up and just do a quick loop so that the forward swing can start at the bounce.

[uspta990770809]

Timing vs Rhythm

Thanks for your response. My own thinking is that on slow balls one has time to go from the unit turn, to the load, and then to the forward swing. On hard hit balls it seems that one would have to be in the load and then start the swing at the bounce because one would not be so rushed. Also, when picking up balls on the rise, it seems one has to shorten up and just do a quick loop so that the forward swing can start at the bounce.

Ralph,
please check my article in Classic Lessons on "Timing and the Release of the Swing". Your questions are addressed in depth in that article, as well as the one that preceeded it. Timing off the bounce of the ball is a classic weakness in most players games and one that can be easily exploited if you can correct it in your own game and recognize it in your opponents's.

I'd be curious if that helps you out.

don brosseau

[stotty]

I have to say Don's article "Timing and Release..." is an excellent resource for the questions Ralph is asking. I learnt a bit reading it myself. That's the best thing about TP.net - the answer is usually usually on the website somewhere.

If there is one thing (the only thing) I would change about TP it's the indexing/filing system of the content. It's a big resource and sometimes the answer is hard to find. I'd change the titles of some of the pages and have drop-down lists to further assist navigation. I might suggest it to John when I can fully work out a way things might be accessed better.

[ralph]

Don, thank you for directing me to your article. I am a small college coach and will certainly incorporate your information in my practices. In fact, I have already used some of your drills in my practices. Now I will be able to be more precise in my explanations as to the value of the drills. I believe that you mentioned that one could exploit the timing factor when competing. Could you elaborate, please.

Ralph

[uspta990770809]

Rhythm vs Timing in competition

Don, thank you for directing me to your article. I am a small college coach and will certainly incorporate your information in my practices. In fact, I have already used some of your drills in my practices. Now I will be able to be more precise in my explanations as to the value of the drills. I believe that you mentioned that one could exploit the timing factor when competing. Could you elaborate, please.

Ralph

Don, thank you for directing me to your article. I am a small college coach and will certainly incorporate your information in my practices. In fact, I have already used some of your drills in my practices. Now I will be able to be more precise in my explanations as to the value of the drills. I believe that you mentioned that one could exploit the timing factor when competing. Could you elaborate, please.

Ralph

About 35 years ago, my coach, Jerry Alleyne, taught me to look for 3 things in a warmup for a match.

One, does the opponent hit with rhythm;
Two, does he hit with correct technique on the volley;
Three, does he have a good rhythm on his toss and a sound second serve.

If I see the opponent hits with rhythm, I will test it a couple of times with an offspeed ball or a slice or a particularly out of flow shot to see how he reacts, and if my first suspicions are confirmed, I will go back to giving him a very consistent, rhythmic ball in the warmup and let him build up his comfort level and confidence (falsely) a little bit. Then when we get into the match, I will try to mix in a few offspeed balls and slices or extreme topspins to throw off his shot. My primary tactic will be to keep the ball deep so he doesn't have much time to start the swing after the bounce (deeper than I fed him the balls in the warmup; the warmup is supposed to be just that, not a practice session for me to practice my deep ball). But if you just hit the ball deep all the time the same way, a rhythm player can make an adjustment and handle that ball. It will probably be more difficult for them than someone who plays correctly with timing, but they can handle it. They will probably start to get the racket back before the ball bounces, but then they will start to be stuck with a "dead racket" when they go to start their forward swing. It will be very difficult for them to start their "loop" before the ball bounces if they are true ball-bounce rhythm players. In competition, I want to mix the balls with a little subtlety so that false confidence kind of shatters when the opponent's shot stops working for no apparent reason. They just are "having a bad day" and "can't find their rhythm". When I used to watch Laver or even Evert at the US Open in the early 70's, you would see some long rallies, especially when they had the Hartru from 75 to 77. It was great to watch those top players in a long rally hitting to the same section of the court. Just hitting the ball back to the same place to the casual observer, but if you knew what you were looking for, each ball was hit differently. Certainly, there was not as much topspin as there is now, but there was a lot more variety from ball to ball and you rarely saw two balls in a row hit exactly the same way. And this was a distinction you found from the very top players to the ones who were just very good.

Players today don't understand this tactic very well. The emphasis is much more on power, but there has also been a renewed appreciation for the art of "messing up your opponent" with an occasional slice, especially to exploit extreme grip disadvantages on low balls.

This kind of approach makes the game a lot more interesting to play and to watch.

Just to complete the thought about the three points:

Two, the volley.
This is not as critical as in the past because so few players come to the net except to shake hands. But in college tennis it happens a little more often. And where the volley skill is so generally weak, it can be very helpful. A good volleyer has a short crisp stroke with a short backswing and little if any follow through. Some players are very good off a fast ball. They have no backswing at all and are very good at blocking a fast passing shot. But they don't do so well when you take the pace off the ball and they can't get anything on the shot. They have to start lengthening their volley stroke and it usually messes them up. If not, you probably get a second chance to pass. Other players tend to have too long a followthrough with the racket going down a lot as they "scoop" the ball. Drop the ball below the net and they will have a great deal of difficulty hitting a deep firm shot. The extended follow through will mess them up.

Finally, the second serve. If my opponent doesn't have a good rhythmical toss and a consistent second serve, I know I have to immediately move in on the second delivery to let him know I am going to attack that ball. The added pressure will give greater rewards in the form of additional double faults if the server doesn't have the fundamental rhythm to hold his service motion together.

This was a simple approach, but at least I had a plan and something to look for. I was pretty much going to serve and volley every chance I got anyway. This gave me a way to plan my attack of the opponents service game. If I didn't see any of these weaknesses in my opponent, I knew I better pack lunch! Today players don't serve and volley much, but they do try to serve and get control of the point. Recognizing false rhythm in your opponents strokes can give you a focus of how to go from defense to offense on his serve; a tool you can use.

Damn, I miss competing. My body can't take it any more, but my mind misses it.

Hope that helps you a little, Ralph.

don brosseau

[backhand]

Thanks, Don. Enjoyed reading about your warmup "tests."

[ralph]

Don, thank you for your input. Your articles and lengthy response have given much to think about. It is going to take a bit for me to digest and internalize a part of the timing concepts. I will let you know in the future how I have been able to apply them.
Ralph

[ralph]

Don, I have been applying the idea of starting the swing before the bounce when returning against hard serves, or maybe I just think I am. I am getting more back. Can the brain compute starting the swing before the bounce?
Ralph

[uspta990770809]

The Human Brain

Don, I have been applying the idea of starting the swing before the bounce when returning against hard serves, or maybe I just think I am. I am getting more back. Can the brain compute starting the swing before the bounce?
Ralph

The brain is capable of so much more than most of us can even imagine. If you can get the "deliberate left brain" out of the way on the return of a hard serve, the "reactive, reflexive right brain" will certainly tell your arm that it better start moving before the ball bounces because otherwise the ball is going to be past you before you react. This doesn't mean you will start the final acceleration of the swing forward to contact before the bounce. After all the ball loses about 40% of its already significantly reduced speed when it hits the ground, and you can't really accelerate forward to that contact point until you see how the ball will bounce. Of course, if you return from 15 feet behind the baseline, you might be able to get away with it. If you really want to feel yourself getting started early, try returning from 1 yard behind the baseline. You'll start moving the necessary half-volley swing way before the ball bounces. Let your mind figure out how to do it. Then back up gradually and you'll be amazed how much time you have to return serve.

don
PS If the server has a big serve, you may need a cup, but hey, it's all in the interest of learning.

[sejsel]

Should a player just have to have the unit turn completed by the time the ball bounces on his side of the court or should one be fully loaded at the bounce? Is it correct to think that one needs to start the swing at the bounce from the load on most fast balls? Just a couple of questions that I have been thinking about. Thanks for any advice.

Ralph

Always a pleasure to read Don Brosseau's inputs!

There's also one other article that just came to my mind, it tells something similar to what You might have read thus far on the subject:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/classiclessons/scott_murphy/scott_murphy_timing_magic/scott_murphy_timing_magic.html

[uspta990770809]

Scott Murphy's timing article

Always a pleasure to read Don Brosseau's inputs!

There's also one other article that just came to my mind, it tells something similar to what You might have read thus far on the subject:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/classiclessons/scott_murphy/scott_murphy_timing_magic/scott_murphy_timing_magic.html

This is a great article on timing. Scott's description of setting up your coil before the bounce and beginning to uncoil just as the ball bounces is a little like me saying you start the swing on very deep balls a little before the bounce. There are significant differences in what we are saying, but they are very much in the same vein. As for his points on watching the ball, I was reading a reprint someone sent me of a Barbara Breit Gordon series in Tennis Digest about her lessons with the great old-timer, Mercer Beasley, and he was all over that concept of keeping your eye on the contact point until you finished the stroke. I don't know if I can do it. I wish there was a way to post the reprint.

In any case, you put all these things together and your timing has got to improve. Be aware, however, it takes an awful lot of practice to get proficient at playing the ball on the rise. If you don't capitalize on the advantage you gain by going to the net, you are increasing the risk you are taking for too little reward. Certainly it opens up the court (ala Agassi), but you need some pretty big weapons to capitalize on it without going to the net.

don