Racquet facing down at end of backswing

[keifan]

I understand that with the more extreme forehand grips (semi-western to western) it is very common for elite players to have the racquet face facing down towards the ground at the end of the backswing which is primarily a result of the grip itself. This is referred to as "patting the dog on the head" in other forums. However, even with these grips, it is possible to not face the racquet directly towards the ground if you don't incorporate any pronation of the forearm during the backswing. My questions is what is the true benefit of achieving this positioning of the racquet face (e.g. more topspin, power etc.) vs. someone who does not achieve this positioning despite using the more extreme grips?

[johnyandell]

Great question. Look at DelPotro or Sampras in the Forum. They don't close in that part of the backswing too much. The angle of the face not in the backswing, but at the start of the forward swing is what differentiates the grips. There must be some reason so many of the players do close the face on the way down, but this is probably a Brian Gordon measurement question. I've seen a lot of people try to copy it with disastrous, exaggerated results. Still think the priority is to get the face right as it starts forward.

[gzhpcu]

This is referred to as "patting the dog on the head" in other forums. However, even with these grips, it is possible to not face the racquet directly towards the ground if you don't incorporate any pronation of the forearm during the backswing.

My understanding is that you pronate as you come forward, but you supinate when bringing the racket back on the backswing...

[uspta146749877]

Djokovic

My understanding is that you pronate as you come forward, but you supinate when bringing the racket back on the backswing...

There are exceptions for a backswing-see a forehand of Djokovic

[johnyandell]

That forearm can turn many ways at many times. But what if anything does it mean??

[stotty]

I had a student with 'dog pat' technique. I posted videos clips on the forum asking coaches to help resolve the problem (the clips are still in the forum somewhere). Many coaches offered help. Some of the coaches on TP.net are highly skilled and with their help I resolved my student's problem. But the bottom line was this: The dog pat mattered little. It was the transition from backswing to forward that was critical. You don't want the dog pat continuing into the forward swing. It needs to be opening out as the forward swing commences.

My student's problem didn't really lie in the 'dog pat' as I had initially thought. It was his transition from backswing to forward swing that was flawed.

This is where TP is can be magnificent. Some coaches 'see' things others don't. As a coach, sometimes you can look at a flawed stroke for ages yet can't figure out where the problem lies. Another coach can see the problem in a flash. I feel when this happens, it is TP at its best.

[gzhpcu]

That forearm can turn many ways at many times. But what if anything does it mean??

Tennis remains very complex....

[10splayer]

I had a student with 'dog pat' technique. I posted videos clips on the forum asking coaches to help resolve the problem (the clips are still in the forum somewhere). Many coaches offered help. Some of the coaches on TP.net are highly skilled and with their help I resolved my student's problem. But the bottom line was this: The dog pat mattered little. It was the transition from backswing to forward that was critical. You don't want the dog pat continuing into the forward swing. It needs to be opening out as the forward swing commences.

My student's problem didn't really lie in the 'dog pat' as I had initially thought. It was his transition from backswing to forward swing that was flawed.

This is where TP is can be magnificent. Some coaches 'see' things others don't. As a coach, sometimes you can look at a flawed stroke for ages yet can't figure out where the problem lies. Another coach can see the problem in a flash. I feel when this happens, it is TP at its best.

Think it's cool, things worked out for your student.

[keifan]

Thanks for the replies. My racquet face is 80-90% facing straight down (slightly open by about 10-15 deg.) at the end of the backswing/beginning of the forward swing. Trying to get 100% facing down (like Kohlschreiber) by using a little extra pronation leads to too many errors so I am going to leave well enough alone. The only other way to achieve this is to adopt a full western grip which I don't want to start using. Again, it seems that the main advantage I achieve having the racquet face near closed before the forward swing is increased topspin.

[johnyandell]

I doubt that. The racket face will be very close to perpendicular at contact.
The upward vector of the swing is what causes spin. Willing to bet also that PH comes off the closed angle.

[sejsel]

That forearm can turn many ways at many times. But what if anything does it mean??

According to some, it can mean, in some situations, a waste of very precious time.

Few years ago, in Spain, at some levels, people have started thinking about how and why their players often struggle on hardcourt tour and faster surfaces...

[sejsel]

Thanks for the replies. My racquet face is 80-90% facing straight down (slightly open by about 10-15 deg.) at the end of the backswing/beginning of the forward swing. Trying to get 100% facing down (like Kohlschreiber) by using a little extra pronation leads to too many errors so I am going to leave well enough alone. The only other way to achieve this is to adopt a full western grip which I don't want to start using. Again, it seems that the main advantage I achieve having the racquet face near closed before the forward swing is increased topspin.

Read the article on forearm and hitting position by John Yandell.

For increasing topspin, closing the racquet face consciously can give results, but can also cause (potentially) a good deal of "damage" or problem, and not for the opponent.

Also, one previous member made an excellent technical point about one of his students' problem.

[keifan]

Thanks for the advice sejsel. I just read the "Racquet face angle"
piece in "Building the Modern Forehand" which explains it all quite
thoroughly. No more conscious turning of the racquet face down
before the forward swing...

[sejsel]

You're welcome, keifan; always glad if I can help.

I'll look for the particular article I was really referring to and check if it matches the one You mention.

Browse freely through the articles on tennisplayer.net, there's a great chance the answers to any questions on Your tennis quest (path) might allready be there.

[oakinwande]

That forearm can turn many ways at many times. But what if anything does it mean??

Hey john, do you have any information on two-handed forehands? How to teach them, pros and cons. Technical aspects to focus on when trying to teach them. Thanks.