Power Serve - Elbow extension more important

[nunziata]

Elbow extension on the serve was mentioned briefly in this article, and I think it should not be underestimated. For myself, this article reminded me that if I concentrate on getting my elbow pointing forward (via shoulder rotation) before I let my forarm snap up to the ball and pronate helps with power and control.
I almost used my elbow to aim my serve today, and I think this actually makes sense. If your elbow is pointing off in some odd direction when you try to hit the ball, I don't see how you can control the direction of your forearm. It's probably true that the actual thing happening here is a correction of shoulder rotation, but thinking about the elbow actually makes it happen.
Sometimes, I wonder if all this analysis is really helpful if you can't get the student to perform the motion. More emphasis on *how* you make your body do such-and-such notion may be needed.

[Alfred140mph]

I don't see that at all..If your elbow was really pointing at the ball, you better have the world's greatest elobw extension...Really though the elbow much more to the side--this is what facilitates the rotation of the upper arm, which I think is considered a major power source... Look at Pete or my man Andy in the Stroke Archive.

A suggestion would be the Sampras serve articles. I read them and it's more step by step how to create the motion and the key parts.

[nunziata]

reply

I'll look at the articles-
but as I recall, the Vic Braden camps I attended also suggested the elbow should lead the forearm.

[johnyandell]

I think Alfred basically has it right. You can go to the Stroke Archive and see it. The great players tend to have their upper arm in line with the torso. The torso is rotating forward which also moves the elbow forward, BUT that isn't what drives the racket up to the ball.

Vic is a genius, a pioneer, and a friend. He'd be the first to admit our understanding of the game is evolving--in fact he was doing some incredible new filming at Indian Wells.

Look at this image of Federer:
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tionFront1.mov

[CrazyLefty]

elbow action

Nunziata has a valid point. Elbow extension plays a major role in most high velocity motions of the upper extremity. These movements happen much too fast to see in the stroke archives (30 hertz filming). Elliot's research does not identify elbow extension as being a major contributor to racquet head speed, but it does play a major role in the kinetic chain. The elbow extension increased wrist extension and places the muscles of the forearm on stretch. The added wrist extension also increases the distance in which the racquet can be accelerated. Elliot's research identifies the wrist to be a major contributor to racquet head velocity. I would say that elbow extension facilitates the action of the wrist.

[Bungalow Bill]

I think Alfred basically has it right. You can go to the Stroke Archive and see it. The great players tend to have their upper arm in line with the torso. The torso is rotating forward which also moves the elbow forward, BUT that isn't what drives the racket up to the ball.

Vic is a genius, a pioneer, and a friend. He'd be the first to admit our understanding of the game is evolving--in fact he was doing some incredible new filming at Indian Wells.

Yes I would agree with you John about Vic. Great guy and with the "tools" he had to work with in tennis he did a remarkable job to set us up for advancements and improvments in his foundational work. Hats off to Vic.

But! I want to get clarity on this "major source of power". In particular, arm rotation as a "major" source of power.

There is a critical difference to me regarding what is a "source" of energy and what is "kinetic" energy. Understanding the two can help a player concentrate on the right things within their motion to execute proper technique. If for example, I am concentrating on the arm rotation as the MAJOR source of energy, I am probably going to try and twist my arm faster. I do not believe in a service motion with all that is going on that we want to send this message.

In my opinion, arm rotation is kinetic energy or energy in motion because it is moving. The source that set it in motion came from something else (shoulder stretch, muscle density or strength, or ability to accelerate the arm from the shoulder area, torso, legs, etc.).

By the time energy is transferred to the arm - it is kinetic in nature because the arm should not be building up any energy and should be in a relaxed state to allow the energy to flow through it and accelerate it.

Sources of energy come from stretching (like pulling back on a rubber band before letting go) or pushing against something like the ground. The shoulder stretching as the racket is lowered over the shoulder is clearly a source of energy as it releases its energy into the arm.

Arm rotation is a means of transferring this energy and facilitates natural movement. It is the bodies natural way to allow energy to flow through.

[CraigC]

Chiming In

I'm not sure where this fits into this discussion but.. I hit 5 serves today, all between 118 and 122 mph using my full motion. Then I hit 3 serves using only my arm, no coil, no legs, just pronation and snap--they went between 102 and 106. So, obviously the kinetic chain holds some power. The question to me is... how much strain am I putting on my arm and shoulder if I only use pronation as my source of power? By using the chain, it releases the strain on the arm, in the same way a pitching windup does so. I'll leave it up to you biomechanical genuises to figure out how this all works, but that's my two cents.

CC

[Bungalow Bill]

I'm not sure where this fits into this discussion but.. I hit 5 serves today, all between 118 and 122 mph using my full motion. Then I hit 3 serves using only my arm, no coil, no legs, just pronation and snap--they went between 102 and 106. So, obviously the kinetic chain holds some power. The question to me is... how much strain am I putting on my arm and shoulder if I only use pronation as my source of power? By using the chain, it releases the strain on the arm, in the same way a pitching windup does so. I'll leave it up to you biomechanical genuises to figure out how this all works, but that's my two cents.

CC

Well see this is where we need to be careful. From what I have studied, I am sure that kinetic energy has some "source" behind it as there is some measure of resistance that needs to be pushed through.

In your case by just using your arm, it was your shoulder not the arm itself that was the source of power.

Yes, I will agree that there are probably little starts and stops of energy being transferred in the kinetic chain but that does not mean it is a major source of power.

Therefore, it should not be the main attraction when you serve. The arm needs to be in a relaxed state (that is the major attraction for the serve) and should not be considered a major source which could present issues in instruction and development.

A major source is in the shoulder area and a tennis player should concentrae on improving their range of motion and their strength to accelerate this area. This area is one of the major sources of power for the serve.

[shootermcmarc0]

i find that when i'm trying to muscle the ball, i end up having more of a shearing effect on contact and it isn't a clean hit. whenever i'm relaxed it feels and sounds like i'm making clean contact.

hey Bill, in the Attach Your Strokes section I posted a vid of my serve, could you take a look at it?

[Bungalow Bill]

i find that when i'm trying to muscle the ball, i end up having more of a shearing effect on contact and it isn't a clean hit. whenever i'm relaxed it feels and sounds like i'm making clean contact.

hey Bill, in the Attach Your Strokes section I posted a vid of my serve, could you take a look at it?

Sure I am trying to get used to moving around here. But thanks for letting me know where it is!

......5 minutes later.....

Shooter for some reason I had trouble getting it to go. Is it me or technical difficulties? Of course, I could be considered a technical difficulty,

[shootermcmarc0]

Sure I am trying to get used to moving around here. But thanks for letting me know where it is!

......5 minutes later.....

Shooter for some reason I had trouble getting it to go. Is it me or technical difficulties? Of course, I could be considered a technical difficulty,

ok, i'll upload it again in the Attach Your Strokes section. John actually mentioned the same thing to me as well before.

*edit* what did it say when you tried to play it? maybe it used a bad type of compression. if you used windows media player and it didn't work, then i'll try to convert it to mov if i can find good software

[Bungalow Bill]

ok, i'll upload it again in the Attach Your Strokes section. John actually mentioned the same thing to me as well before.

*edit* what did it say when you tried to play it? maybe it used a bad type of compression. if you used windows media player and it didn't work, then i'll try to convert it to mov if i can find good software

Shooter,

It didn't do anything. I waited and waited and waited...

[dgels]

abdominal component

One thing that occurs to me - scrolling through the Federer 1st Serve Duece Arm Action Front - is there is abdominal musculature involved as well...at the height of the serve he actually "jacknifes" through, with the fulcrum of the whip being his waist - actually pulling the knees up after full leg extension.

For what that's worth.

Time for some crunches, fellas...

dgels

[johnyandell]

BB,


Right click that file--save it as a target, then you can look. some people get it directly. I have to save it somewhere first--you probably have to as well. Why? No idea.

JY

[Bungalow Bill]

One thing that occurs to me - scrolling through the Federer 1st Serve Duece Arm Action Front - is there is abdominal musculature involved as well...at the height of the serve he actually "jacknifes" through, with the fulcrum of the whip being his waist - actually pulling the knees up after full leg extension.

For what that's worth.

Time for some crunches, fellas...

dgels

Yes! Excellent observation. One of the best signs for a tennis player executing a proper serve motion that he hasn't done in a long time, is sore stomach muscles.

Your "center" can receive and store large amounts of energy and quickly send it up the kinetic chain. Crunches it is! Also, do not exclude the hip flexor muscles as well both stretching them and strengthening them.

So, work the lower/mid/upper stomach (leg lifts, crunches, etc.), obliques (roman twists if you can or something safe), hip flexor stretches and that hip machine in the gym you walk passed all the time and medicine ball if feasible