Re Two Genius Coaches

[gsheiner]

Chris,

Congratulations on a very interesting article.

I've often wondered what different systems were teaching since the results seem to be so different. You brilliantly point out the difference between the Spanish Coaches and Gilad Bloom. I also recall reading how the Russian women were taught ballet-like footwork at the famous Moscow club.

Given the difference in results of players from the Spanish system and the hard court system, it seems that, if one had to choose for the modern game, the Spanish system would win hands down. But, is it possible or even practical for hard court countries to teach the Spanish system?

I've often wondered what countries like Canada should do from a developmental point of view. Most tennis here is hard court and lots of it is indoor in the winter.

As a final note, I was always struck by the number of great one-handed backhands that came out of France ( Leconte, Pioline, Mauresmo, Gasquet) and wonder if there was someone there who really knew how to teach it.

GS

[chokomakashi]

Great post

This is great thread... and this is very interesting subject...

start out Spanish tennis....

Well, people talk about Spanish tennis as a modern tennis, but I believe it has been there for long time.. it is more or less their tradition.. since they train on Clay... as a result, most everybody play similar style... I believe most coaches agree with how they train the players....

About bring Spanish tennis to US? I would say maybe US should have more clay court... that may change the game dramatically....And also will change the mind set for the game...

I read the article that in Spain they just drill and drill and drill hours and hours and hours.. mainly ground stroke... just hit and hit and hit....
And also they have great mind for the game.. nothing comes for free.. they know tennis isn't easy sport... and it is running sport.... not many people actually think tennis is runningn sport.. this is crazy....

And what you said is very interesting.. Russian women learn something different at their club.... and who Dominate women's tennis now?
Russians... but Men? it is Spanish....
Why Spanish women can't dominate the game???

I would say it is due to Spanish tennis is bit too physical for Women.....
As you can see Russian players.. they hit more clearner and less spin...
I believe it is much more easier for women player to play like this way..

however this is not always true.. you see Henin or Mauresmo more or less they play like Men.. so it can be done and if some can do that then they can win lots of match....

And finally...where you grow up and who you learn from change your game very much... You rarely learn tennis by yourself.. you most likely learning tennis from someone first... so say.. your coach like you to hit with two hand both side when you start tennis... you may stick with it.. or if coach want you to hit with one hand then you may end up hitting with one hand....

[chrislewit]

Spanish style training on hard courts

Chris,

Congratulations on a very interesting article.

I've often wondered what different systems were teaching since the results seem to be so different. You brilliantly point out the difference between the Spanish Coaches and Gilad Bloom. I also recall reading how the Russian women were taught ballet-like footwork at the famous Moscow club.

Given the difference in results of players from the Spanish system and the hard court system, it seems that, if one had to choose for the modern game, the Spanish system would win hands down. But, is it possible or even practical for hard court countries to teach the Spanish system?

I've often wondered what countries like Canada should do from a developmental point of view. Most tennis here is hard court and lots of it is indoor in the winter.

As a final note, I was always struck by the number of great one-handed backhands that came out of France ( Leconte, Pioline, Mauresmo, Gasquet) and wonder if there was someone there who really knew how to teach it.

GS

Hello,

Thanks for the comment. I coach in New York City and have succesfully adapted some of my favorite Spanish training techniques to the conditions here (hard and indoor) that are similar to Canada's.

But I'm a little skeptical that the standard Spanish style training system could be just transplanted here successfully in the US. There are a lot of challenges to that. I think you have to take the best of Spanish training and adapt it to the US environment--culturally, surface-wise, etc.

Case in point: The USTA development team under Jose Higueras is attempting to adopt many Spanish approaches to the US high performance development system. They are actually building clay courts here at the USTA National Tennis Center in NY, which is ambitious. But their approach is a modified Spanish approach, more hybridized than one would find in Spain.

By the way, in Spain, most of the top academies have installed medium pace hard courts and the students play on both red clay and hard courts in a balanced way. And in Spain, the system is primarily the same regardless of the surface. That indicates their view: mainly that the system is the best for all surfaces--double rhythm, defense, and all.

I'm glad you enjoyed the first installment. I hope the next article helps explain my position more fully.

In France, where I have also spent some time studying coaching, there is no bias against the one-hander. I'm not sure if there is any one individual who is teaching a great one-hander to those players you mentioned, but there are many well-trained French coaches who understand that young kids should be allowed to experiment with one-handed shots to see if the have a predilection for them. Here in the US, most coaches force pretty much everyone to use a two-hander, and I think that bias is limiting certain kids who would be better and more natural with a one-handed shot. It can become a downward spiral because now I believe there are very few coaches in the US who know how to teach a world-class one-hander. There are many repurcussions in the US from this myopic approach, including perhaps most importantly, a lack of variety from many of our junior players and willingness to come to (and skill at) the net.

Cheers
Chris

[chrislewit]

Russians training in Spain

This is great thread... and this is very interesting subject...

start out Spanish tennis....

Well, people talk about Spanish tennis as a modern tennis, but I believe it has been there for long time.. it is more or less their tradition.. since they train on Clay... as a result, most everybody play similar style... I believe most coaches agree with how they train the players....

About bring Spanish tennis to US? I would say maybe US should have more clay court... that may change the game dramatically....And also will change the mind set for the game...

I read the article that in Spain they just drill and drill and drill hours and hours and hours.. mainly ground stroke... just hit and hit and hit....
And also they have great mind for the game.. nothing comes for free.. they know tennis isn't easy sport... and it is running sport.... not many people actually think tennis is runningn sport.. this is crazy....

And what you said is very interesting.. Russian women learn something different at their club.... and who Dominate women's tennis now?
Russians... but Men? it is Spanish....
Why Spanish women can't dominate the game???

I would say it is due to Spanish tennis is bit too physical for Women.....
As you can see Russian players.. they hit more clearner and less spin...
I believe it is much more easier for women player to play like this way..

however this is not always true.. you see Henin or Mauresmo more or less they play like Men.. so it can be done and if some can do that then they can win lots of match....

And finally...where you grow up and who you learn from change your game very much... You rarely learn tennis by yourself.. you most likely learning tennis from someone first... so say.. your coach like you to hit with two hand both side when you start tennis... you may stick with it.. or if coach want you to hit with one hand then you may end up hitting with one hand....

Thanks for your thoughts

Interestingly, Spain has become a hotbed of training for Russians, Eastern Europeans, indeed all Europeans and even Middle Easterners. Russians have had particularly great success honing their games in Spain.

Indeed, and I believe part two of the article will elaborate on this point, Russians train very technically at young age and then often move to Spain for finishing school. Many great Russians have taken this path, such as Marat Safin and Safina, Igor Andreev, Kuznetsova, etc. Additionally, most of the aforementioned countries send squads to or have training camps in Spain.

Your observation about women and Spanish tennis is a very keen one. I have interviewed many coaches about the women's problem in Spain in my trips there. The Federation is very aware that they are lacking in top women's players and they are working on the problem. Some coaches I have spoken to blame a male dominated coaching establishment that in the past has favored boys development over girls. Some coaches mentioned to me that many times the girls had not received the same monetary and coaching resources as the boys. Whatever the reason, I do know that the Federation in Spain has prioritized developing top women and they are trying to correct the problem.


You may be right in suggesting that the Spanish model, which is very physical and dependent on racquet speed may be hard for some women to emulate. It's a very interesting question.

You make a good point about how many Russian women can do better at the Spanish game than the Spanish women. I would add to your point that the Russian women are in general bigger, stronger, and usually technically superior to their Spanish counterparts and this helps them play the more physical Spanish game more successfully.


From a broader perspective, for me, the success players have had training physically and technically in Russia and then learning the tactical game in Spain is a hint at the new paradigm and theory of training I am hypothosizing in these articles-a hybridized development approach using the best of both models at the right stages of a player's development.

Chris

[chokomakashi]

Thank you very much

wow thank you was very nice reply..

your comments are very professional and very easy to understand... thank you...

yes russian girls are bigger and stronger, but they aren't exactly playing like Spanish tennis right? i mean i don't see any of them playing like Sanchez Vicario or Nadal... i mean way of their playing takes too much energy...

I have few questions to you.. if you can answer I really appreciated...

1)
when you talke about Spain... Spanish tennis... I am very curious how they really teach small kids.. I heard that in Spain small kids like 7 or 8 hit just like Nadal... i mean open stance and hit lots of spin... and this is how coaches in spain teach from the start???
In US we tend to teach close stance and follow through... and when kids get older then introduce the spin.....or open stance...

2)
do you think how much Spanish tennis can apply to adult tennis?
I have taught many many adult and most do not have athletic ability and I have came to conclusion that they just can't get the Spanish style tennis.. they just don't have enough athletic ability or physical to do this..
Any thoughts on this?? and how Adults in Spain is played?

Thank you so much.. this is great

[gsheiner]

Thanks for the insightful answer Chris. And, interesting comments Choko ( for short).

It seems that the Spanish style is more physically demanding but isn't the Gilad Bloom system demanding in the sense that it requires superior eye-hand coordination? What is more common --great body athletes like Nadal, Ferrer, Moya etc. or players with brilliant eye hand coordination like Agassi or McEnroe?

Can different kids be tested in a way to see which skills they possess? Kids with great hand eye coordination can be taught to take the ball early and the more body gifted kids with average hand eye coordination can be taught to play the defensive style of Spanish tennis?

GS

[chokomakashi]

Extremely interesting

it is extremely interesting...

test kids and see which style work for them....

I would test following also
1) how mentally tough you are
2) how fast can you run
3) how quickly you can move
4) skill of your volley
5) personality--- are you a risk taker or more of conservative...
6) how tall probably this kids going to be... by looking parents...

well, i read Michael Chang's biography and he talks about how Michael and Carl his brother play differently.. because of two different body characteristic.. Carl is big and strong..so he plays moer aggressive tennis, and as we know Michael chang is mental toughness and extremely quick...

so for Michael Chang serve and volley isn't too promising....

that's why when I teach kids.. i teach them to be aggerssive.. and take a risk and go to net as much as you can .. and hit through the ball... because I believe you can be defensive player in over night but you can't be aggerssive player in over night.....

oh.. quick notes.. yes spanish players play percentage tennis, but none of the players on TV play deffensive.. none of them... they all play aggressive and they know how to finisht the point.....

just they hit different shots.. and different way of winning.....

[chrislewit]

answer questions

wow thank you was very nice reply..

your comments are very professional and very easy to understand... thank you...

yes russian girls are bigger and stronger, but they aren't exactly playing like Spanish tennis right? i mean i don't see any of them playing like Sanchez Vicario or Nadal... i mean way of their playing takes too much energy...

I have few questions to you.. if you can answer I really appreciated...

1)
when you talke about Spain... Spanish tennis... I am very curious how they really teach small kids.. I heard that in Spain small kids like 7 or 8 hit just like Nadal... i mean open stance and hit lots of spin... and this is how coaches in spain teach from the start???
In US we tend to teach close stance and follow through... and when kids get older then introduce the spin.....or open stance...

2)
do you think how much Spanish tennis can apply to adult tennis?
I have taught many many adult and most do not have athletic ability and I have came to conclusion that they just can't get the Spanish style tennis.. they just don't have enough athletic ability or physical to do this..
Any thoughts on this?? and how Adults in Spain is played?

Thank you so much.. this is great

1. I will ask this question on my next trip to Spain. The academies that I usually visit are geared to 12 and up. But it's a great question. I would suspect that the technical parameter U10 are very broad and that kids would be allowed to mimic their favorite Spanish players. The coaches in Spain, in general (and in my opinion), tend to be very open minded technically, as I mentioned in the article.

2. I think all coaches everywhere struggle to coach adults who lack athleticism. I think it is possible to teach a modern style to adults, but they have to be very motivated and have a lot of time to practice, which most adults don't have.

Cheers
Chris

[chrislewit]

good question

Thanks for the insightful answer Chris. And, interesting comments Choko ( for short).

It seems that the Spanish style is more physically demanding but isn't the Gilad Bloom system demanding in the sense that it requires superior eye-hand coordination? What is more common --great body athletes like Nadal, Ferrer, Moya etc. or players with brilliant eye hand coordination like Agassi or McEnroe?

Can different kids be tested in a way to see which skills they possess? Kids with great hand eye coordination can be taught to take the ball early and the more body gifted kids with average hand eye coordination can be taught to play the defensive style of Spanish tennis?

GS

I think they all see the ball great, to be honest. But speed is a big factor. You have to be very, very fast and a true runner to play the Spanish defensive game only. Bruguera, Nadal--these types of guys run like a deer.

I would say that patience and conservative nature would also be a major factor in how one would train a player, whether in attacking or more defensive styles.

There are many factors including physical ones, but the bottom line is that I'm arguing in this piece that even the most offensive minded player should learn some defensive Spanish skills, and the most defensive minded Spaniard would be wise to learn to take the ball on the rise and attack like an Israeli.

I study martial arts, and the same approach is used in mixed martial arts. Fighters who are mainly stand up fighters (boxers for example) study grappling disciplines like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to make them more complete fighters. Ground fighters study striking arts like Muay Thai to make them more complete fighters.

So I am basically making a parallel point in my piece. I believe that to be a complete tennis player, one should be able to defend and attack as necessary and as the situation dictates, especially the speed of the court.

I think Federer is a great example of a player who can attack and defend very well and thus can win a slow clay tournament and succeed on a fast court too

Cheers
Chris

[gsheiner]

Very insightful. Can't wait for your future articles.

GS

[chokomakashi]

Indeed

He makes great comments...

Very professional and very experience....

all my opinon comes from my long time teaching... all comes from experience....most comes from my failure....

I learn a lot from failure.. try to make me think one more time...

if student isn't getting any better.. there got to be problem coming from someone who is teaching.. Period.....

[uspta146749877]

Recovery steps?

Chris,
your quote
"Carioca and any kind of crossover steps are discouraged. "
So how do recover on a forehand side?
julian mielniczuk uspta certified pro
juliantennis@comcast.net

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

[chrislewit]

Chris,
your quote
"Carioca and any kind of crossover steps are discouraged. "
So how do recover on a forehand side?
julian mielniczuk uspta certified pro
juliantennis@comcast.net

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

In my conversations with Pato Alvarez, a very respected Spanish coach, he would prefer a side shuffle rather than a crossing of the hips.

Remember that this is only one influential Spanish coach's opinion. Some other Spanish coaches may have no issue with crossing the hips.

For me, I teach a cross over recovery to my students as the standard recovery.

On slippery clay, it may be preferable to shuffle, even if it is slower.

Hope that helps

Chris

[uspta146749877]

what is a rhythm step?

Chris,
what is a rhythm step?

[uspta9311799]

rhythm

Rhythm steps are a shuffle step movement usually used in diagonal defense or attack from the center of the baseline. It's like a side shuffle but forward or backward on a diagonal generally.

Double rhythm refers to two gliding strides forward and backward, or vice versa. It's like two side shuffles linked together.

In Pato Alvarez's Spanish footwork system used at Sanchez-Casal, he believes players should move primarily with double rhythm commanding the center of the baseline play

Chris