Importance Of Racquet Drop??

[llll]

please check this thread

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=322271

gzhcpu seems to beleive the depth of racquet drop is not that important since acceleration of the racquet head occurs (according to his reference) just prior to contact. brian gordon was nice enough to take the time to respond in the thread but i was not sure if he agreed or not with my view that the depth of the racquet drop allows a longer distance for acceleration to occur and a drop along the right side of the body aligns the racquet path more optimumly into contact. anyones thoughts?? greatly appreciated.

[BrianGordon]

please check this thread

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=322271

gzhcpu seems to beleive the depth of racquet drop is not that important since acceleration of the racquet head occurs (according to his reference) just prior to contact. brian gordon was nice enough to take the time to respond in the thread but i was not sure if he agreed or not with my view that the depth of the racquet drop allows a longer distance for acceleration to occur and a drop along the right side of the body aligns the racquet path more optimumly into contact. anyones thoughts?? greatly appreciated.

Larry-

No question depth of drop is important to contact racquet speed - it at least increases range of motion and therefore time and distance to accelerate the racquet; along with implying certain beneficial joint preparations - it is one of many important factors - you might find interest in an earlier discussion on the topic:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=161875&page=8

The graph there indicates from the racquet low point to around where gzhcpu sees acceleration in the y-z plane (i think) the racquet head speed has increased around 15 - 20 m/s (34 - 45 mph). Now me, I'll take 30 or 40 % head start in any race - hell, in my condition I'd take 10%.

[llll]

Larry-

No question depth of drop is important to contact racquet speed - it at least increases range of motion and therefore time and distance to accelerate the racquet; along with implying certain beneficial joint preparations - it is one of many important factors - you might find interest in an earlier discussion on the topic:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=161875&page=8

The graph there indicates from the racquet low point to around where gzhcpu sees acceleration in the y-z plane (i think) the racquet head speed has increased around 15 - 20 m/s (34 - 45 mph). Now me, I'll take 30 or 40 % head start in any race - hell, in my condition I'd take 10%.

BRIAN,THANK YOU SO MUCH, for responding. the drag strip as i like to call it ( distance from racquet drop to contact ) is extremely important. as you said it any head start gives you an advantage,. thanks again ,larry.

[uspta146749877]

For Larry

--->quote
Djokovic recently split with Todd Martin after hiring him to work in tandem with longtime coach Marian Vajda. Martin had been working with Djokovic on his serve, but the Serb is now trying to go back to his old way of serving.

"It's very confusing. It's complicated," Djokovic said. "The worst thing you can do is to think about a bunch of different things technically because then you come to the stage where you don't really know what to do."

From

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=5085782

[johnyandell]

My take is a little more simple minded. If the greatest players with the greatest serves all have great drops--then there is something to that position. Brian can explain the how and why, but I think part of the art of coaching is just trying to identify the shapes of the various motions and what parts what players at what levels should strive to emulate.

[bottle]

But I don't think someone with a not great drop should give up. I have found luck with a very extreme turn of the shoulders combined with a real effort to keep the hand far away from the body even during that part of the serve where the elbow has come passively up as the two parts of the arm squeeze together.

Start low enough, in other words, that elbow inversion establishes maximum distance from body.

One way or another you want a long lever, and sure, Neale Frazier may have worked from in close, but I and a lot of other players just aren't that flexible.

This idea of keeping hand far away to form a more perimeterized swing comes not from me but from TENNIS: HOW TO BECOME A CHAMPION by C.M. Jones.
Keeping hand back like this seems to maximize all the kinds of body rotation available through its use of a long lever best measured perhaps from body horizontally to bent elbow.

Ideally, a great server could combine distance away from body with great racket drop as well. This is what one sees in photos of the young Pancho Gonzalez or Dick Savitt, I believe.

Huge stance combined with large wind-back of shoulders does offer a challenge to someone used to starting his toss with arm more out toward net.

Again, however, I've found some luck, and this time by not doing something, i.e., by not imbuing the tossing arm with internal gyroscope. Just let the arm go where it wants during wind-back of the shoulders, in other words.

By now I've tried so many tosses that they all work after a fashion. For a parabolic toss this natural position, however, isn't half-bad.

[chokomakashi]

These are the reason why you have to drop racket

these are the reason why you have to drop racket..

first of all.. if you do not drop the racket you can not place the racket in right position...i see so many people who play at park racket does not drop...
that's why they can only hit the ball flat..

racket face usually points side fence before you hit.. or back fence it is depends on person.. and if you hit the ball from this position.. you can only hit the ball flat....

to me.. one of the hardest stroke in tennis is dropping the racket in right positino for serve... beleive me.. 90% of players at park.. and including myself doing this wrong... this is extremly tough... becasue you have to do this process with very fast speed....

that's why decent players have only good spin serve but not great flat shots.. becasue when they hit they have slight angle coming and that make them easy to hit...

only way and easiest way to get this process is to start from Deuce side and tell yourself i am going to hit slice serve and last second pronate the wrist and hit flat... that is the correct postion of your arm.. racket edge is just next to tennis ball before you hit.....


believe me ... i have read and i have taken so many lesson..

so far none can explain or teach this concept right..... this is the hardest thing in tennis.. for me it is.... if you think i am wrong.. you should take camera and go serve.. see if you can hit the ball flat or spin at last second...

[gzhpcu]

It is not the racket drop which is being questioned, that would be silly. It is the extent of the racket drop which is under discussion.

For example, compare:

Nadal:

Dojokovic:


I took this frames at the lowest point of the racket drop from two videos of Nadal and Dojokovic serving.

[johnyandell]

Those are great images. And they show the actual lowest point, which Brian has also measured. The position I call the pro racket drop is like a frame or so later. This is with the racket more along the right side with the characteristic angle of 90 degrees between the torso and the racket face. To me this is the key position to have the right path to the ball, and the deeper the better here--although as Brian has demonstrated technically it isn't the true bottom.

[gzhpcu]

Do you mean these, John?

[bottle]

Chokomakashi,

What you're proposing is very simple like a lot of wonderful ideas: 1) Develop
a good slice serve out wide in the deuce court. 2) Pronate more off of the
same motion to hit flat down the center. Personally speaking, I don't think
the lowness of racket tip discussion is vitally pertinent to this experiment. Just look at the Dennis Ralston clips in this website. He's hitting great low-flying slice without ever getting his racket tip very low. He is tossing way out front which nevertheless provides sufficient pathway in which to accelerate. Maybe he used to get racket tip lower, too, when he was a young man playing Davis Cup-- I don't know. But his slice serve is a great shot even now: This is clear from the films.

I tried the simple idea as you described it. And since I keep back foot down for at least one of my slice serves, I kept it down for the more pronated version down the center as well. The result was something faster than what I had been doing, so thanks for the idea! Ideas may mix better with tennis than many other sports. You can't have too many ideas or too much discussion in tennis as far as I'm concerned-- I am with you, Chokomakashi, on that. Well, maybe not just before a match.

Of course one could argue that all tennis serves should bounce up to the moon. It's very impressive when they do. Roddick was clearing a Paribas
sign here in Winston-Salem, NC at Davis Cup against France a few years back.
Nobody else could even reach the bottom of the same sign.

Now for getting the racket tip low in all the serves that do require that.
Since writing Post # 6 here I began to think, why not re-define the term "extension" since everybody agrees that extension is so important. My nightmare, I guess, is that one person's extension is just part of someone else's.

So I tried exactly what I wrote: I let passive elbow inversion take elbow backward to farthest possible horizontal distance from body. But next I lowered the beginning of arm bend, which happens just before that. Now elbow inversion moved elbow backward only partway to the maximum distance position.

This meant that more extension of the total lever was available to happen during upper body rotations. Arm compression could happen later, too. Whoopee!

It isn't just how far you get racket tip down, dudes, but when you do it.
All great tennis strokes consist of a series of inspired delays-- no?

In the next stages I then found the 2/5ths-3/5ths acceleration ratio previously discussed in this thread both useful for understanding and even more helpful in practice-- in other words I had a good serving day.

So "have a nice day" as the tea partiers and other people missing a gene or two say here in the American South.

[chokomakashi]

helloi thank you

hello bottle. thank you for reply


my philosphy of tennis.. simple=best...but must follow correct element.. just like pros do.. i never teach my student.. i don't care who.. never teach them eastern grip. and ask them to tap the ball.. they have to learn how to pronate.. racket has to point side fence...


Today i was reacording this student's serve who is 10.. and i watch many times and his hand didn't drop.. just go up without drop.. this is common thing to happen to lots of people.. just not familiar with throwing motion..

then we started to throw football and he got better idea... for the serve.. if you do not know how to throw the ball then you will have hard time.. however you know how to throw the ball doesn't mean you get it though.. that's where coach come in...

well, this is drill i use

1) throw the football.. teach people concept of throwing motion... and show arm doesn't drop purposly.. you watch quarterback.. they hold football next to their neck and when they throw their arm drop but this is the process of going forward motion not purposly dropping.. but those who never throw stuff they never get it.. so you have to exlain from 0...

2) as i said.. many times ask them to hit right side of the ball.. only slice..

3) then teach pronate..

4) start racket just like hitting overhead... if you can hit great overhead with correct technique.. your serve is yours..

not many people undertand... but if you can't hit the serve with half way.. like overhead motion.. you will never be able to hit with full motion.. becasue full motion is just getting to overhead position.. it is myth like momentum will take over.. that's myth... you watch Boris Becker great example.. when he bends his knee what his racket.. it stays up for while.. that's why his brand's logo is his service motion lol....just like logo.. we see that logo for few second.. his racket doesn't drop.. eventhough he has big wind up.. from there it goes really quick..

so work on overhead first then you will get serve easier.. i see those "Decent" server can only hit spin serve.. when they hit overhead their ball goes wide and out...

see.. ask yourself.... or you try at court.. bounce high and hit the overhead see if you can hit over the fence.. like pros hit to stadium.. if you hit this shot with slice you will never bring ball to stadium.. try it you will see it....

if you slice the ball your ball never go high.. just go side... so i see many people who can hit good cross court overhead but when they want to hit to otherside then ball keep coming back to middle becasue of spin....

only problem with this... you must be relax and must have right concept...

welll, easiest way... teach them how to throw the football.. not baseball.. baseball and football throw differently...


oh today i was teaching and this man was practicing serve next to my court then he was hitting flat.. and getting very angry becasue it wasn't going in... well, first of he had eastern grip.. or more heavier.. and his motion was like tapping motion.. boy... his shot was out of control... not even close.. well, i wanted to give suggestion to him.. but it is kind of my rule.. i don't give any suggestion to people or coach.. they might get offended.. if they ask then i will tell them.. happpily....

if I were coaching him... first i would change his grip... and will show the proper way of serving.... it probably will take him 6 month or more to get it... i would say it is not bad.. if he kept playing his style.. it will never get it.. unfortunately.. and I can guess his second serve is probably tap... no kick serve... if you get correct flat shot, your second serve comes with package.. you can get it in few hours... second serve is easy.. as long as you have right grip... and know how to throw correctly....

anyhow... go to target and buy small football it is $10.. best investment you will make for serving practice.. and hit lots of slice from deuce side... oh and if you can get digital camera and record your self.. would be great...

again learn how to throw football.. if you can throw pretty far then you can hit serve pretty hard believe me.. and you will never drop the racket purposly.. lol..

[chokomakashi]

silly me.. i am sorry

silly me.. i am sorry people...

lol.... welll,,, back to this topic.. this depends on how flexible and how long your arm is....I believe....

this is where my great respect comes in for pro tennis player.. their flexibility for serve... man those guys are very loose.. have you try to imitate this position? i mean just get there.. it is lots of stretch...

i am pretty sure people already found out answer for does it make faster or not..

i guess this would be off topic.. honestly i really don't care much about length of stroke.. to me most important thing is just before you hit... is the key... making sure your racket is in proper position... thats is key... before you hit...having correct position before you hit is such a key... to me length isn't too important.. it can mess up.. in the process..

but sorry..

[jryle1]

The flexibility of Novak's shoulder is scary stuff. Would you say that it rivals Sampras' drop John?

[johnyandell]

Phil yes! and Jonathan hard to say exaactly but obviously it's great!