Have a Question for Me?

[johnyandell]

These are reasonable hypotheses... I've got some 3D data Brian developed on Pete Sampras's serve. We'll start to ask some of those questions of it, starting with the speed of the racket.

[10splayer]

Makes sense what you guys are saying. My thoughts are that in the kinetic chain the energy is always transferred from one part of the body to the next. Right before contact all the energy/speed generated through rotation etc. goes into the arm and the body remains relatively still in this phase. If the body was still rotating, it would be very hard to keep the racket on track to hit the ball clean i think.
The same principle is at work with the one handed backhand for example where it is more obvious that the upper body stays relatively still (usually sideways) just before and after contact when you watch someone like Fed for example. On the forehand everything is so fast nowadays though that it causes a lot of confusion i think.
curious on johns thoughts.

cheers

It sure will be interesting in hearing Brian Gordon's take on this subject.

My perspective comes from that of a dumb tennis pro, so take it for what it's worth, but I definately tend to agree with this observation.


In a multi-segmented swing, the body rotates in segments, and at different speeds, from the ground up. And even though the hips, for instance, rotate forward much sooner than the shoulder and arm, they all "square up" (parallel to the baseline) at impact. (at least with stronger grips)

To me, this would suggest that the lower body, hips, , etc, start to slow there rate of rotation, to transfer energy to the last links. If they didn't , in the case of the hips, they would be grossely over-rotated at contact. And never achieve this almost universal "squared up" position

I think the "True Aligment" article by Kerry Mitchell, and his observation about the position of the hips, at impact is pertinant here.

[johnyandell]

I want to see numbers. I think we have to be careful about making quantitative statements without any quantitative data. But again, to me I think the explanation while if it can be substantiated is certainly interesting, is still less important than the simple execution of the positions.

[florian80]

more rotation thoughts on the forehand

Makes sense what you guys are saying. My thoughts are that in the kinetic chain the energy is always transferred from one part of the body to the next. Right before contact all the energy/speed generated through rotation etc. goes into the arm and the body remains relatively still in this phase. If the body was still rotating, it would be very hard to keep the racket on track to hit the ball clean i think.
The same principle is at work with the one handed backhand for example where it is more obvious that the upper body stays relatively still (usually sideways) just before and after contact when you watch someone like Fed for example. On the forehand everything is so fast nowadays though that it causes a lot of confusion i think.
curious on johns thoughts.

cheers

[uspta990770809]

sorry if it is out of line commenting in John's section, but I really like your point here.
That period where the shoulders stop is part of the extension phase that is the subj of discussion on the FH these days, then the shoulders are actually pulled around on the last part of the rotation by the racket and arm as the extension phase ends and pulls the body around in the follow thru.

so the first part is driven by hips and shoulders, then the last part is pulled around by the power of the stroke.

Really like what AirForce is saying. I think it's partly that the movement is too quick for the hips and shoulders through the impact zone. The lower body gets things started, but then the arm just releases really quickly through the ball and you hit against the somewhat stabilized front (left for righty) side, kind of like in a golf swing.

It will be really interesting to see what Brian Gordon brings to light.

[airforce1]

Hi John,

Quick question on your thoughts on rotation on the forehand. We know that rotation is important but this question is more regarding the when. Looking at a lot of high speed it seems to me that the upper body rotation slows down/almost stops right before contact and the upper body is relatively still through the contact zone. After the ball is off the racket, the right shoulder usually starts coming around again. Lots of coaches are telling students to rotate as much as they can and way through contact. From personal experience as a player and coach, I think you hit the ball a lot cleaner when you do not try to rotate all the way through contact. What are your thoughts and how would you communicate that to students ?

Thanks

sorry if it is out of line commenting in John's section, but I really like your point here.
That period where the shoulders stop is part of the extension phase that is the subj of discussion on the FH these days, then the shoulders are actually pulled around on the last part of the rotation by the racket and arm as the extension phase ends and pulls the body around in the follow thru.

so the first part is driven by hips and shoulders, then the last part is pulled around by the power of the stroke.

[johnyandell]

Interesting question! How fast are the body parts going at what parts in the swings? And I don't know the answer(s). Good question for Brian Gordon's long awaited forehand series.

I think a variety of teaching cues--even those that may not actually describe what happens accurately--can be effective for players. I haven't seen that particular one myself. I think if you look at players with similar grip styles over a lot of examples you can make some parameters as to positions...

If your player is matching the positions of the model players on similar balls, I think that is about as much as you can do without doing quantitative measurements. Not exactly a definitive answer but honestly my thoughts at this point.

[florian80]

Rotation on the modern forehand

Hi John,

Quick question on your thoughts on rotation on the forehand. We know that rotation is important but this question is more regarding the when. Looking at a lot of high speed it seems to me that the upper body rotation slows down/almost stops right before contact and the upper body is relatively still through the contact zone. After the ball is off the racket, the right shoulder usually starts coming around again. Lots of coaches are telling students to rotate as much as they can and way through contact. From personal experience as a player and coach, I think you hit the ball a lot cleaner when you do not try to rotate all the way through contact. What are your thoughts and how would you communicate that to students ?

Thanks

[johnyandell]

It's some gorgeous stuff!

[wicky10s]

new federer films

Hi John,
A special personal thanks for the new film footage of Roger. These shots show the tennis ball in many of the frames and it really helps to re enforce the key aspects of stroke preparation while setting up for the ball not to mention that elusive concept of timing! Not so elusive any more thanks to this type of video presentation. What could be more clear than this?
Thanks a million.
Wicky10s

[johnyandell]

You know I even forget why I didn't get to that...thanks for the reminder, but check out the two backhand volley articles:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/volleys/backhand_volley/backhand_volley.html

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/volleys/backhand_volley_variations/backhand_volley_variations.html

They have all the info in a different format. Also the high speed archive on the volleys:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/high_speed_archive.html

I will try to get around to the osmosis version but am knee deep in forehands right now!

[bobfremeau]

Backhand volley osmosis cinic

Hi John.

Love the site. Great stuff.

Any plans for the backhand volley osmosis clinic?

Bob

[johnyandell]

Honestly that first one is a question for a physical therapist, or someone who does sports massage, or a yoga teacher. We will have some stretching exercises on the serve from Chris Lewit and his wife Kim who does teach yoga in a future issue.

But I have rarely seen anyone who couldn't get into the drop position using the windmill drill. I'm revisiting it again in the next issue in a Your Strokes article.

Yeah the mystery is how change occurs. What my experience has shown is that if a person can't model the positions naturally without the ball, there is no chance with. Similarly once the physical model is mastered, the player needs to create some mental images/feelings that correspond with these positions. If you can stay out of the verbal and learn to visualize these keys during actual play, that's the best way I know to make the change/

[uspta1863382890]

Improving the drop?

Hi John,

I was wondering if you can suggest any specific stretches or exercises to help the shoulder range of motion on the drop in the serve. While I know I won't be able to change things much (and I'll never have a shoulder that moves like Roddick's!), mine is quite tight and I'm willing to make the effort. There must be room for a little improvement. I can feel a general sense of tightness and lack of range, but I can't pinpoint anything.

Thank you.

By the way, the more I immerse myself in what I'm learning from you, the more deeply I come to understand how unhelpful traditional teaching is. I've certainly tried as hard as anyone to improve my strokes, but it is at last clear that you cannot consciously make different things happen in complex muscular movements (especially while you're processing a lot of information at once, as in tennis). I don't think about how to walk, and, similarly, I'm not consciously aware of what goes into hitting a forehand. To change things (strokes) that happen outside of or prior to consciousness, you obviously have to train differently, intelligently, and specifically. For example, I'm about to try a couple of exercises to help me fix two elements in my serve - inadequate drop (I not only need to improve my range, as in my question above, but also the ability to get into and out of the drop, regardless of how far my physiology allows me to go), and rotating out too soon and too much (a la V. Williams). I've noticed that in certain warmups when I abbreviate and isolate in specific ways, I can see change. For example, yesterday I took Rick Macci's no-leg serve from one of the articles on your site (he has you put your feet in hoppers and face the net to serve with just the whip of the arm - this is much like a baseball warmup my coach used to have us do) and did it while standing at 90 degrees to the baseline. Without even intending it, I was able to come at the ball from the left and hit from a better, more left contact point and get a better topspin component.

Therefore, when I get some time to actually go out and practice, I'm going to spend some time serving from the drop and doing this modified Macci drill. Then, I'm going to repeat them often until the motor learning happens and my full on serve includes these elements. I also want to try isolating going from the power position to the drop.

It seems to me that one of the great obstacles to learning tennis is our mistaken understanding of what the "conscious I" is actually conscious of, along with a complete lack of understanding of how motor learning happens. I look forward to practicing and seeing if some change occurs.

Brandon

[rosheem]

The Wiper Forehand at the 4.0/4.5 Level

John,

I hit a much better ball when I use the wiper motion vs. trying to drive straight through the ball. The advantages the wiper has over the more traditional drive (for me):

• More consistent
• Higher, faster bounce catches opponents off-guard
• Easier to create sharp angles
• Cleaner contact (when I analyze my own video, I observe more hits that are slightly off-center when I try to drive straight through vs. using the wiper)
• Easier on wrist/elbow (probably due to cleaner contact)

The only disadvantage is that I don't always get the depth and penetration I might want. My observation is that this happens because I get a little too tight, especially on balls that should be put away, and I pull the trigger too soon on the stroke. As a result, the racquet face closes too soon and the shot is a bit shallow and low.

The other disadvantage is that I am annoyed by these old school teaching pros who keep telling me to "flatten that one out" on certain balls.

I think I would be better served to stick with the wiper as my bread-and-butter shot and improve on it, rather than continuing to struggle with the flatter-style driving shot. However, I think I read here or somewhere else that club-level players should become proficient at driving the ball first and then add the wiper later.

I just wanted to share that my experience seems to support the opposite view...learn and hone the wiper forehand first, and add the penetrating drive later. So far, having moved from never playing tennis in my life about two years ago to being able to beat the best 4.0 players in my club and hang with many of the 4.5 players...I haven't really seen a problem with this approach. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.