Have a Question for Me?

[nabrug]

Don & John,

I am a teacher (I train teachers). I know that you 1. have to show the motion 2. give a description of the motion and 3. let them train the motion. It only gives a rough idea of the task at hand.

Nobody in the world will create a stroke just by seeing it. Even the gifted with the greatest kinesthetic imagery. Because "there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other." Like in the other thread there are zillions of possible arm and racket movements and we are blind, totally blind, for this one inner system a particular pro is using. And the inner system that is where it is all about. You saw that in the serve thread and you can see that because nobody has a clue what e.g. Nadal really is doing. And you can see it all in the clips.


John used to claim that "the image or the position (automatically) leads to the feeling." If you could precisely see what happens than you have the stroke. Well the right phrase would be "the image or the position creates "a" feeling.


I see it as black and white. But if you could persuade me to see it on a gliding scale I would say that it would give you only 1% of the actual feeling.

So the two text phrases of John can not be the same. I thought he changed from 1 to 2. And that sounded hopeful.

So the final question still is. John, are you standing behind the first or the second vision which you proclaimed yourself?

[johnyandell]

There is the description and video depiction of what happens. Then there is how you chose to imagine it. Those two can but don't necessarily coincide. But whatever the key, hopefully it leads to the correct motion--which can be checked for accuracy using the video.

So yeah you can use an image to get to a feeling of a technical motion--to make what actually happens happen.

[tennis_chiro]

Putting words in John's mouth

That is very strange.

Under 1 you say: "The image or the position leads to the feeling."

Under 2. you say: "These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other." Your conclusion there for is excellent "Then there is the related but not identical issue--how to make what actually happens happen."

In my opinion 1 and 2 are contradictionary. It can't be both. So I understand you still believe in the first. Than why did you write the second piece of text.

I see your question, Nabrug, but I think the crux of the matter is that it is very complicated to create a stroke. And "leads to the feeling" is not quite the same thing as "making what actually happens happen". That is, this is not a situation as simple as a + b = c. "a" (the image) helps you get to "c" (the stroke we are trying to produce,in this case a serve). But we don't really know what b is or even if it is a + b or a * b or a / b. How different people internalize a specific image has a great influence on how they end up making a specific stroke. Some people have great kinesthetic imagery; some have almost none.

John, am I somewhere near trying to put the right words in your mouth? Please excuse me for trying.

don
Also, Nabrug, don't mean to get in the way of John answering the question

[nabrug]

No my opinion is the same.

That is very strange.

Under 1 you say: "The image or the position leads to the feeling."

Under 2. you say: "These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other." Your conclusion there for is excellent "Then there is the related but not identical issue--how to make what actually happens happen."

In my opinion 1 and 2 are contradictionary. It can't be both. So I understand you still believe in the first. Than why did you write the second piece of text.

[johnyandell]

No my opinion is the same.

[nabrug]

Did you change your point of view?

1. John Yandell 18-9-2009
"Regarding feeling and strokes.

I believe kinesthetics and visuals are two halves of the same whole. The image or the position leads to the feeling. I've said that repeatedly and written it in my book."


2. John Yandell - 0ktobre 2010 - The Upward Swing: Federer's Serve in High Speed and High Def
"Second there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other.
You can forget about seeing all that accurately with the naked eye. Even high speed video, as we will see, still leaves issues open to question and disagreement. So yeah, passionate, knowledgeable people come to different conclusions.
I’ve written about some of these debated issues before in articles on the movement of the wrist (Click Here), and on the motions of Federer (Click Here), Roddick (Click Here) and Sampras (Click Here). I’ve also gotten into many, shall we say, animated discussions, on internet message boards and at coaching conventions over what actually happens.
Then there is the related but not identical issue--how to make what actually happens happen. This is an equally puzzling and possibly even more debated question. And the one that really matters for players who want to improve their serves."

In my opinion you changed your opinion drastically? Can you tell sg. about the contributions what led to your change?

[johnyandell]

It couldn't be helping and might be hurting. Very hard to guess since there is no video. Have him grap his shirt with his hand as he starts the upward swing.

[bman]

here's an interesting question. I have a player (19 year old male, low level tournament player) whose off arm is not "tucked" at contact point on the serve, but rather it is up in the air, so that both arms are up in the air, in triumph like Rocky Balboa at the top of the art museum steps. My question is

1) Does this need to be fixed?
2) How would you go about fixing it?
3) This seems fairly rare, is it mainly an issue of lack of coordination?

Thanks

[johnyandell]

Two things. I'd want to be asked by the player or coach. But second even though that is some gorgeous high speed video, unless you can advance it frame by frame you really can't make a good analysis of the stroke positions.

[bowt]

Hi John,

http://andrevazpinto.blogspot.com/2011/04/sarah-campion-forehands-at-500-fps.html

if you were going to analyse or give advice to this player what would you say?

Thanks

[johnyandell]

Great Great question. Never heard of it applied to tennis. I am not an expert on injuries or physiology. So no real opinion here other than the obvious--if it's tired hurt or very sore, stop! Heading to Easter Bowl. If I run into some USTA coaches I'll ask.

[tennisfan04]

Serve count versus pitch count

Hi John,

I understand that young baseball players are told not to throw more than a certain number of pitches as they are growing up to protect their arm. Do you know what those numbers are?

How do those number relate to the number of serves that junior players routinely do when they play 3-4 matches over a weekend at a typical USTA Junior tournament?

Is there a "serve count" that you would advise junior players to not exceed per day?

Thanks

[johnyandell]

Dartfish can although the older files have to be converted. There is an article on doing that in teaching systems. In my own work I simply use the QT windows and open them side by side. You can open multiple windows at the same time.

I personally don't like to draw lines, do voice over, etc, but if you want to do that there is Dartfish and another program called motion pro which is less expensive. I think it can read all QT files or converts them automatically. I am sure there are more out there as well.

[lobndropshot]

Software options

What are the analytical software options that can use quicktime video files?
Thanks

[johnyandell]

geoff, trick question--you know i only feel i need to read it.