Have a Question for Me?

[johnyandell]

Great to hear. This is exactly how Tennisplayer is supposed to work. Love it.

[stotty]

Thanks, John. Well, those clips are an eye-opener. The contact point on all three is in front of the body, and the hips are opening right up on the contact point. I think this is where I am going wrong when i teach the stroke because I get kids to stay more 'clued' in their stance, which locks them up rather.

I tried it today with my son and it worked quite well.

I feel coaches have to teach the open stance b/h early in a child's development or they won't take to it. There seems to be a lot of skill and balance to the shot and it takes some learning.

We are very behind here in the UK...no coaches teach this shot.

Thanks again JY

[johnyandell]

Look at this and tell me what you think:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/elena_dementieva/ed_backhand/ed_bh_wide/ed_bh_wide.html?EDBHWideOpenStanceSide1.mov

But then:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/elena_dementieva/ed_backhand/ed_bh_wide/ed_bh_wide.html?EDBHWideOpenStanceSide3.mov

Here's probably closer again to the norm--although maybe a bent bent could be further back:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/HD/Andy_Murray/Forehand_Backhand/Forehand_Backhand.html?andy_murray_bh_wide_openstance_side.mov

[stotty]

John

With an open stance (or semi-open) backhand, is the ball played alongside the leading hip (that would be the right hip on a right hander) or slightly behind the leading hip?

I get the impression it wouldn't be played out in front of the body, for sure.

[johnyandell]

Sure you can. That's not what we see with high level players--basically when the racket is moving forward it's set in one position. Not sure what the consequences of trying to adjust that are, but remember this is the time when the acceleration occurs and it's fractions of a second!

As I always point out, if I had video of your forehand I could look at that element in relation to all the others.

[alvin123]

Forehand problem

Hi John,

Can I use straight hitting arm before pulling the racket forward and then bend the elbow using the double bend to hit the ball ? I think it allows me to bring the racket and arm forward and meet the ball solidly in front of the body without the circular forces that take the racket around the body and also more control with double bend forehand. Thanks.

[johnyandell]

One factor in the answer here is that most of the racket speed occurs only when the racket is truly headed forward with the wrist back. So I wouldn't worry about the torso rotation. Just try to make the positions and let them work for you.

Eventually you will want your arm loose in the backswing so that it falls into the slot with the wrist back naturally. But to get the feel it's sometimes helpful to set up that wrist position a little mechanically as the backswing starts down.

Hope I understood and answered what you asked.

And thanks for the great words. Means a lot.

[bigryoung]

wrist position

John,

In trying to establish my forehand I have a question concerning the wrist position related to the torso. In a good model, when a player has completed the backswing and is just about to start swinging forward, is the butt cap of the racket behind the plane of the waist/torso, is it aligned with the waist, or is it ahead? I understand that the racket face doesn't break the plane of the body. It seems like torso rotation would benefit racket head speed only if the wrist is aligned with the waist. I hope I haven't worded this question in a confusing way. Thanks in advance.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/Forehand/RF_FH_Center/RF_FH_Center.html?RFFHCenterOpenStanceSide1_500fps.mov

P.S. In this clip of roger federer the butt cap is definitely behind the waist for a portion of the forward swing. I guess I answered my own question, but I would still like to hear any input you have. Best website ever!

[johnyandell]

I'm not going down this path with you again and I suggest you get off it as well. There is dialogue and there is antagonism and I've been around long enough and seen enough coaches come and go to know the difference. Please don't blame it on language as I have had productive dialogue with hundreds of coaches around the world. In private communications with other people on this board, there is a clear consensus about your attitude. I've answered your questions and feel you either don't or don't want to comprehend what am I saying--and you apparently feel the same about me. I can live with that. In the words of President Obama I have more important things to do than waste my time with this silliness.

[nabrug]

I am always interested if people can express themselves coherently and with good intention. Unfortunately it has been very difficult to comprehend your views, not only is this thread. In addition the tone of your posts is primarily negative. I would be delighted to see you start another thread.

That my native language is dutch and that I will never be able to express myself as you (plural) I can understand that. You will never be able to express yourself like me in dutch. So have a little sg. (?) with me. And by the way I think that people read between the lines what I mean. You obviously don't want to understand me.

But where in what sentence is my intention not good or primarily negative? Because I confront you with things you don't know or are not coherent in your statements?

[johnyandell]

I am always interested if people can express themselves coherently and with good intention. Unfortunately it has been very difficult to comprehend your views, not only is this thread. In addition the tone of your posts is primarily negative. I would be delighted to see you start another thread.

[nabrug]

Well John Yandell is not interested!? I will make an other thread.

[tennisplayer]

I should probably post this as a separate thread, but am doing so here since all the context is here.

To nabrug: I am trying to understand where you are going, since you seem to be on the verge of making a very important point. Are you saying that the myriad of complex movements that constitute a serve are interesting but unimportant for instructional purposes because most of them are consequences of something more fundamental and simpler? Like the inner method you are alluding to? If so, could you give a broad indication (if not details) of what the fundamental principle might encompass - for example, is it an aspect of body kinetics, or a goal in the sense of the GBA method? Thanks.

[nabrug]

"Second there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other.
You can forget about seeing all that accurately with the naked eye."

What will be the chance that you feel all the relationships in all those moving bodyparts if you only know the positions? My answer is nihil and for that matter that is a method we should reject.

You first answer to my post was very short. It is obvious you are annoyed and want to stop this. So let's stop.

[johnyandell]

Nabrug, I've answered your question. From reading your response I don't think you have understood what I have said. And that's ok. You are welcome to think as you please, obviously.

To recap:

The first step is to figure out the actual motion as accurately as possible. That's where analyzing the video is critical. Now you help the student physically model the motion or key positions. Next you help he or she create a mental image of the positions. Then ask them to imagine the "feeling" or kinesthetic that goes with the image. These are the two halves of the same whole. You ask them to specify how they translated/created this in their own mind/body. That becomes their personal key. As you watch them working you can then suggest variations to their keys, or exaggerations or overcompensations to bring the motion closer to the model. This process is facilitated with regular video feedback.