Have a Question for Me?

[tennis_chiro]

Putting words in John's mouth

That is very strange.

Under 1 you say: "The image or the position leads to the feeling."

Under 2. you say: "These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other." Your conclusion there for is excellent "Then there is the related but not identical issue--how to make what actually happens happen."

In my opinion 1 and 2 are contradictionary. It can't be both. So I understand you still believe in the first. Than why did you write the second piece of text.

I see your question, Nabrug, but I think the crux of the matter is that it is very complicated to create a stroke. And "leads to the feeling" is not quite the same thing as "making what actually happens happen". That is, this is not a situation as simple as a + b = c. "a" (the image) helps you get to "c" (the stroke we are trying to produce,in this case a serve). But we don't really know what b is or even if it is a + b or a * b or a / b. How different people internalize a specific image has a great influence on how they end up making a specific stroke. Some people have great kinesthetic imagery; some have almost none.

John, am I somewhere near trying to put the right words in your mouth? Please excuse me for trying.

don
Also, Nabrug, don't mean to get in the way of John answering the question

[johnyandell]

There is the description and video depiction of what happens. Then there is how you chose to imagine it. Those two can but don't necessarily coincide. But whatever the key, hopefully it leads to the correct motion--which can be checked for accuracy using the video.

So yeah you can use an image to get to a feeling of a technical motion--to make what actually happens happen.

[nabrug]

Don & John,

I am a teacher (I train teachers). I know that you 1. have to show the motion 2. give a description of the motion and 3. let them train the motion. It only gives a rough idea of the task at hand.

Nobody in the world will create a stroke just by seeing it. Even the gifted with the greatest kinesthetic imagery. Because "there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other." Like in the other thread there are zillions of possible arm and racket movements and we are blind, totally blind, for this one inner system a particular pro is using. And the inner system that is where it is all about. You saw that in the serve thread and you can see that because nobody has a clue what e.g. Nadal really is doing. And you can see it all in the clips.


John used to claim that "the image or the position (automatically) leads to the feeling." If you could precisely see what happens than you have the stroke. Well the right phrase would be "the image or the position creates "a" feeling.


I see it as black and white. But if you could persuade me to see it on a gliding scale I would say that it would give you only 1% of the actual feeling.

So the two text phrases of John can not be the same. I thought he changed from 1 to 2. And that sounded hopeful.

So the final question still is. John, are you standing behind the first or the second vision which you proclaimed yourself?

[johnyandell]

Nabrug, I've answered your question. From reading your response I don't think you have understood what I have said. And that's ok. You are welcome to think as you please, obviously.

To recap:

The first step is to figure out the actual motion as accurately as possible. That's where analyzing the video is critical. Now you help the student physically model the motion or key positions. Next you help he or she create a mental image of the positions. Then ask them to imagine the "feeling" or kinesthetic that goes with the image. These are the two halves of the same whole. You ask them to specify how they translated/created this in their own mind/body. That becomes their personal key. As you watch them working you can then suggest variations to their keys, or exaggerations or overcompensations to bring the motion closer to the model. This process is facilitated with regular video feedback.

[nabrug]

"Second there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other.
You can forget about seeing all that accurately with the naked eye."

What will be the chance that you feel all the relationships in all those moving bodyparts if you only know the positions? My answer is nihil and for that matter that is a method we should reject.

You first answer to my post was very short. It is obvious you are annoyed and want to stop this. So let's stop.

[tennisplayer]

I should probably post this as a separate thread, but am doing so here since all the context is here.

To nabrug: I am trying to understand where you are going, since you seem to be on the verge of making a very important point. Are you saying that the myriad of complex movements that constitute a serve are interesting but unimportant for instructional purposes because most of them are consequences of something more fundamental and simpler? Like the inner method you are alluding to? If so, could you give a broad indication (if not details) of what the fundamental principle might encompass - for example, is it an aspect of body kinetics, or a goal in the sense of the GBA method? Thanks.

[nabrug]

Well John Yandell is not interested!? I will make an other thread.

[johnyandell]

I am always interested if people can express themselves coherently and with good intention. Unfortunately it has been very difficult to comprehend your views, not only is this thread. In addition the tone of your posts is primarily negative. I would be delighted to see you start another thread.

[nabrug]

I am always interested if people can express themselves coherently and with good intention. Unfortunately it has been very difficult to comprehend your views, not only is this thread. In addition the tone of your posts is primarily negative. I would be delighted to see you start another thread.

That my native language is dutch and that I will never be able to express myself as you (plural) I can understand that. You will never be able to express yourself like me in dutch. So have a little sg. (?) with me. And by the way I think that people read between the lines what I mean. You obviously don't want to understand me.

But where in what sentence is my intention not good or primarily negative? Because I confront you with things you don't know or are not coherent in your statements?

[johnyandell]

I'm not going down this path with you again and I suggest you get off it as well. There is dialogue and there is antagonism and I've been around long enough and seen enough coaches come and go to know the difference. Please don't blame it on language as I have had productive dialogue with hundreds of coaches around the world. In private communications with other people on this board, there is a clear consensus about your attitude. I've answered your questions and feel you either don't or don't want to comprehend what am I saying--and you apparently feel the same about me. I can live with that. In the words of President Obama I have more important things to do than waste my time with this silliness.

[bigryoung]

wrist position

John,

In trying to establish my forehand I have a question concerning the wrist position related to the torso. In a good model, when a player has completed the backswing and is just about to start swinging forward, is the butt cap of the racket behind the plane of the waist/torso, is it aligned with the waist, or is it ahead? I understand that the racket face doesn't break the plane of the body. It seems like torso rotation would benefit racket head speed only if the wrist is aligned with the waist. I hope I haven't worded this question in a confusing way. Thanks in advance.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/Forehand/RF_FH_Center/RF_FH_Center.html?RFFHCenterOpenStanceSide1_500fps.mov

P.S. In this clip of roger federer the butt cap is definitely behind the waist for a portion of the forward swing. I guess I answered my own question, but I would still like to hear any input you have. Best website ever!

[johnyandell]

One factor in the answer here is that most of the racket speed occurs only when the racket is truly headed forward with the wrist back. So I wouldn't worry about the torso rotation. Just try to make the positions and let them work for you.

Eventually you will want your arm loose in the backswing so that it falls into the slot with the wrist back naturally. But to get the feel it's sometimes helpful to set up that wrist position a little mechanically as the backswing starts down.

Hope I understood and answered what you asked.

And thanks for the great words. Means a lot.

[alvin123]

Forehand problem

Hi John,

Can I use straight hitting arm before pulling the racket forward and then bend the elbow using the double bend to hit the ball ? I think it allows me to bring the racket and arm forward and meet the ball solidly in front of the body without the circular forces that take the racket around the body and also more control with double bend forehand. Thanks.

[johnyandell]

Sure you can. That's not what we see with high level players--basically when the racket is moving forward it's set in one position. Not sure what the consequences of trying to adjust that are, but remember this is the time when the acceleration occurs and it's fractions of a second!

As I always point out, if I had video of your forehand I could look at that element in relation to all the others.

[stotty]

John

With an open stance (or semi-open) backhand, is the ball played alongside the leading hip (that would be the right hip on a right hander) or slightly behind the leading hip?

I get the impression it wouldn't be played out in front of the body, for sure.