Have a Question for Me?

[jryle1]

I just borrowed Jeff Count's photo here from his article on the straight armed forehand to ask a question.

I've been intrigued by this position since first learning of it from Jeff's site and talking to him about it. I THINK he believes this COULD be one of the reasons why Federer and Nadal's forehands are so unique, powerful and explosive. Would it in your opinion, be worth investigating this aspect of the stroke more. From the position above to contact and just after contact, to see what makes these two forehands unique? I know you've done two very detailed articles on the Federer forehand and one on Rafa's but I thought it might be interesting investigating this further.
I think Jeff puts Roger's forehand down to extreme torque combined with maximum leverage but he'd be able to help me out more there with the explanation.

Would just like to get your opinion on the above pictures and how it affects the strokes. Surely it allows you to store more kinetic energy which will later be released?

[johnyandell]

It's a good question and I think the answer is that only a player could answer. Obviously it works for those guys. It probably pushes the contact further in front and also probably requires more body rotation.

I think Brian will eventually have something to say about it quantitatively. It's dangerous to throw around terms like "storing kinetic energy" loosely.

Whether it's some kind of turning point in the evolution of technique I am not sure. I do think that it probably has more application for elite players. And remember there are plenty of great forehands around with other arm structures: Djokovic, Soderling, and Del Potro who seems to use a variety.

[jryle1]

It's a good question and I think the answer is that only a player could answer. Obviously it works for those guys. It probably pushes the contact further in front and also probably requires more body rotation.

I think Brian will eventually have something to say about it quantitatively. It's dangerous to throw around terms like "storing kinetic energy" loosely.

Whether it's some kind of turning point in the evolution of technique I am not sure. I do think that it probably has more application for elite players. And remember there are plenty of great forehands around with other arm structures: Djokovic, Soderling, and Del Potro who seems to use a variety.

I suppose that's fair enough about the kinetic energy thing. Yeah it's interesting. Federer and Nadal appear to be the only ones doing it. After re-reading what I wrote I forgot to mention what I was talking about. I'm talking about the extreme layback of the wrist? Is that what it is? Jeff calls it "pulling at an angle into the ball" or something like that. I just find it interesting that the Federer and Nadal forehands are probably up there as two of the greatest shots in history along with the Sampras serve and other strokes as well but I just find it easy that these extreme layback positions are interesting and could they mean anything. The other two pics arent neccessary, they are just for contrast really.

And yeah, for sure, Berdych's is pretty damn big!

[johnyandell]

Verdasco also and yeah the wrist may mean something.

[tennis_chiro]

The speed drop of the serve

John, the speed drop of the 120 mph to 90mph before and 60 mph after impact and the subsequent slow down to 55mph, is that empirical or modeled data? If empirical, how was it measured?

Also, has anything been done about how the rotation on the ball could create additional drag and slow the ball down? Certainly, the drag of topspin drops the ball into the court, but is there any possibility Sampras's serve would actually have moved through the air faster without all that spin (although I don't think it would have been either as consistent or as tough to handle) or was his 130 mph serve really going as fast as the 150 mph serve, but a lot of energy was going into overcoming the drag of the spin. Kind of a double edged sword!

don

[johnyandell]

The data was based on an actual study of Pete's serve:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/ball_speed_pro_tennis/ball_speed_pro_tennis_page1.html

There is similar data from a second study that incorporated spin:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/speed_and_spin/speed_and_spin.html

Good question about the drag I don't know how the spin affects the speed or if it does--seems unlikely but there may be some impact--way out of my area there! The one thing I do know is that the spin level over the flight stays higher than the velocity--meaning less spin is lost than speed. Why I couldn't tell you.

[ten1050]

Norman Ashbrooke serve

Dear Mr. Yandell,

I just want to thank you again for the article you wrote about my serve. Since the article was published in August of 2010, I have won 3 sanctioned senior tournaments in Southern California. Your instruction was most helpful when it came to changing my stance and developing more leg drive. If you can help a sixty year old warhorse like me, I know you can help anyone.

Sincerely,

Norman Ashbrooke

[johnyandell]

Thanks Norm, you made my post Xmas week!

[jimlosaltos]

Fed a Bit Bent

John,

Great new videos of Federer serving.

Question: When Fed hits his twist serve, he is significantly bent at the waist. I was always told you should have a straight line from impact point to foot, as you're striking the ball. In fact, my position at impact looks a lot like The Fed's (only thing about my game that resembles his, but I'll take what I can get )

Do I not understand the issue about being straight / extended, or is this specific to the kick-twist serve? Let's see if I can embed a vid cap from your video:

Well, It's attached, since the pic icon seems to only work with URLs.

Thank you!

[jimlosaltos]

Re: Speed drop

>> The data was based on an actual study of Pete's serve:
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...nis_page1.html <<

Have you done any work on the impact of variations in the tennis balls?

I've heard the larger Dunlop's used at Wimbledon have an 8% larger CSA, which slows them down 10% more. A NYTimes article a few years back said the difference between the Wilson used by the WTA and that used by the ATP was about 10 MPH. But "Technical Tennis" (If I remember the book's title correct) dismisses the impact of ball size. Lighter balls would also slow down more rapidly.

This is really only relevant at the tournament level; but it is intriguing in part because the tournament organizers don't seem to want to talk about it (Witness comments by the announcers at USO that the tourn. refused to give them specifics.)

Thx.

[johnyandell]

Well, you raise an interesting question. I think that this bend such as it exists is a consequence of the left ball toss on the second serve and the leg kick back.

Roger I think is straighter than most. Definitely I wouldn't advocate this as something to try to make happen. On his first serve he lands somewhat bent as well but more upright than anyone else I've filmed.

My feeling is that it is probably best to try to keep the trunk erect and land on balance and let what happens happen.

Great question about the balls, but no I have no idea on any data. All players know that different balls are different and different at different stages of wear and in different climatic conditions, but...I don't have an opinion beyond my own experience there.

[jimlosaltos]

Fed High Backhand Service Return

Enjoying your site's series on return footwork. Good stuff.

Here's another variation I'd love to understand better.

At the recent year-end ATP Cup final, Federer beat Nadal in large part by hitting out aggressively on high backhands, including service returns. I noticed at least two "styles" both with abbreviated follow-throughs and wondered if you would comment. It's like his block return with no follow through, except far more aggressive, stepping or running forward.

In this YouTube video, at 2:40 you can see Fed taking the ball on the rise. He starts with an open stance, but lands on his right foot like a closed stance while running to the net. The follow through is straight out in front like a block, never coming across or wrapping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xam2_Bt7qrY

While the announcer said Fed "came over it", IMHO it looks as if he never straightens his arm and must use his forearm predominantly.

I saw other returns where the stroke appeared even more abbreviated.

Thoughts on both the stroke and the footwork?

Thank you.

[johnyandell]

Yeah Dave Bailey is out there at the edge!

As for the Fed Backhands in the footage--just one more reason why I destest utube...you can see just enough to make you wonder.

I can't really give any kind of informed opinion. But I happen to know we will be putting up Roger's backhand returns later this year--and that may help answer your question.

One thing I do know. Our spin studies showed returns were significantly flatter than groundstrokes and that may help explain what you see.

[jimlosaltos]

Fed BH return

thanks. Look forward to the video.

don't know that I've seen Fed hit this particular return against anyone other than Nadal, though. usually blocks or chips the high backhands.

[johnyandell]

Well maybe will get a chance one day to film that match up.