Have a Question for Me?

[johnyandell]

Excellent questions. Becker always managed to have great knee bend even with his old style footwork. You just wonder if he had gone totally modern if things might have been even bigger.

So far as a correlation between that and his grip--I'd never pondered that and don't come up with an immediate insight. Maybe you or someone else has one?

[uspta990770809]

Please check my post last post on pronation on Rafa's 130MPH serve

In trying to answer a question, I think I formulated as good an answer as any on why the continental grip is necessary for the most efficient serve or maybe the fastest. You don't have to do it, but it gives you a greater upside when you learn how to hit the flat serve with the strong continental grip. I sure hope this spurs some responses. I've been away from this for a few months and it seems like it's tougher to get a response from the Cognoscenti then it used to be. Or maybe I was just deluded. Usually the case. At least I want to see what you think
don

[johnyandell]

Yeah I did post something. But sometimes honestly I don't always feel I have the answer. It does seem to me that the extreme grips are more spinny and they probably do effect something in the exact angle of contact. Just not certain about how all that works.

[uspta990770809]

This is from 1AM this morning

Yeah I did post something. But sometimes honestly I don't always feel I have the answer. It does seem to me that the extreme grips are more spinny and they probably do effect something in the exact angle of contact. Just not certain about how all that works.

Yes, I saw your earlier post. But I was trying to answer a question from Blake_B and in that uncertain, post midnight fog we sometimes work in, I think I came up with something a little clearer, at least than the fog. Please take a look.

don

[johnyandell]

OK if the cloning succeeds.

[uspta990770809]

Cloning tips

OK if the cloning succeeds.

Just be sure to ask for something good to bite down on when they turn on the juice! Otherwise, it's no problem.

[johnyandell]

I'd gladly take the shock treatment if the outcome was possible...

[oliensis]

Becker didn't always land on the right foot after the serve. Sometimes right, sometimes left. Following is a link in the stroke archive of his landing on his left.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_serve/bb_1st_serve/bb_1st_serve.html?BB1stSDeuceFront1.mov

And here's one of him serve/volleying, landing on BOTH feet BEHIND the baseline!

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_serve_and_volley/bb_2nd_serve/bb_2nd_serve_ad_deuce.html?BB2ndSDeuceBHVCourtLevelRear.mov

And here's landing on the right foot:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_serve/bb_leg_action/bb_leg_action.html?BB1stSDeuceLegActionSide1.mov

And, the left foot...from the same series as the last:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_serve/bb_leg_action/bb_leg_action.html?BB1stSDeuceLegActionCourtLevelRear.mov

My GUESS is that how he lands has something to do w/ which serve he's serving: kick, slice, flat...or something along those lines. But I've not been able to figure if that's actually true. That's just a hypothesis.

As far as I can tell, which foot lands is not hugely important if hip rotation is complete. It's more a function of which way (or if) you "scissors" after the moment of impact.

I had a left hip problem (hip since resurfaced) and taught myself to land on my right leg in order to save wear and pain. I never liked it (since surgery have landed on left), but if I only changed what I did after impact while in the air, it didn't really seem to affect the serve terribly, except insofar as it may have been conducive to having the hips and body a bit more open at impact, but how open hips and body are at impact seems to vary even among big servers (e.g. Sampras and Ivanisavic), just as how far open at impact on forehand varies w/ how eastern or western one's grip is...

I suspect that a "more toward forehand" grip is a bit more conducive on the serve to having the body a bit more open at impact as well, just as "more western" on the forehand is conducive to "more open" at impact than "more continental."

[johnyandell]

That left foot landing stuff in our footage surprised me a lot. I never remembered him doing that during his prime and I am pretty sure I am correct on that.

Was the right foot landing some vestige of some old school coaching? Was it a netural or even a negative in what was a great serve? As much knee bend as he had, did it limit his? My own view is that there is a reason every top player today lands left.

[oliensis]

Back a few years I looked hard at all the footage, in search of someone who landed on the right foot, as I tried to adjust my landing to my left hip pain.

You even have an article on the site somewhere from what I would respectfully term an old-timer (can't recall who) who referenced the great servers of old who all right-foot landed. And he claimed that the younger guys were, roughly speaking, doing it wrong. But of course he was from the days when one foot had to be on the ground when serving. (Gonzalez and Kramer all right-foot landed after leaving left toes on ground.)

I got to where the right-foot landing worked, but it did require me to be more open in my hips and torso when hitting the serve. And I tended to strain my shoulder when doing that. But naturally my serve tends to be very closed, lining up about as closed as Sampras (wish I had similar results).

Now...all the modern pros, you say? Yannick Noah..he's just about my age. So, maybe not modern...but had a helluva serve. All right-foot landings.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/yannicknoah/yannicknoah_sa.html?YN1stSDeuceFront.mov

[oliensis]

One more thing:
Notice that Sampras' hips are close to the baseline by about 45 degrees when he hits his serve. Stop-motion this clip at impact:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSDeuceCourtlevelFront1.mov

Noah's hips are just about square to the baseline:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/yannicknoah/yannicknoah_sa.html?YN1stSDeuceFront.mov

Becker, who starts much less closed than Sampras, has his hips at about 45 degrees closed when he makes impact, even when he's landing on his right foot as in this clip:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_serve/bb_1st_serve/bb_1st_serve.html?BB1stSAdFront2.mov

I think Becker's like Soderling. He was just a big strong mofo. Not optimal mechanics.

[srinivas]

serve pronation for kick slice and flat

hi john
is it possible to have a high speed footage of these three serve pronations from front view lined up side by side for learning

Best reagrds

If you have something specific to ask me, this is the place! I will try to respond to all posts.

I want to know what you think of the site and what you think I should do more of, less of, or differently. If you really like it, I won't mind hearing that either. I get a lot of my best ideas by listening, so start talking...

If you have technical questions, you can ask and I'll do my best to help. BUT as it says in the overview of Your Strokes, I'm not sure that this type of detailed, purely verbal technical discussion is always productive. In fact, I'm concerned that pontificating at length in response to written questions is often--or even usually--counterproductive.

Why? Because I believe that seeing is the basis for understanding when it comes to tennis. So don't be too upset if I express my honest reluctance to answer at length when I'm not really sure what I am talking about. That's why we created Your Strokes in the first place--so myself and the rest of the staff can actually see what you guys are talking about.

We're starting off with one subscriber stroke a month in Your Strokes. If it really takes off, we can always expand that--we can also post images here in the Forum if people make them available in the right format and size.

I hope we'll get a lot of other knowledgable people commenting as well!

[johnyandell]

Not at this time. I think we corresponded on this. You best bet is to look thru the archives and pick the serves you want, download and look side by side.

Pronation differs from player to player. It's one of the mysteries of the game. I am not convinced either you will see significant differences on the pronation for these three balls. I looked at that for Pete a while ago and thought we posted it in the Forum. I'll look again.

It's an interesting question. But I am not ready to address it in detail myself at this time. Anyone else?

[uspta990770809]

there might be another way to go after this

Not at this time. I think we corresponded on this. You best bet is to look thru the archives and pick the serves you want, download and look side by side.

Pronation differs from player to player. It's one of the mysteries of the game. I am not convinced either you will see significant differences on the pronation for these three balls. I looked at that for Pete a while ago and thought we posted it in the Forum. I'll look again.

It's an interesting question. But I am not ready to address it in detail myself at this time. Anyone else?

I don't know if you would see that much difference in the actual pronation, but there are certainly differences in the motions when someone like Federer or even Nadal for that matter hits a flat, a slice or a kick serve. Of course, we can line those up side by side in Quick Time Pro and compare them, but we are kind of guessing which is a kick, which is a topspin. You would have to identify them as you record them when you see the result of the serve as to whether or not it was flat, kick or slice. That might be something to add to your classifications of serves as you record new high speed strokes For example, we can see when Roddick is hitting a second serve in the video clips, but it's hard to say which ones are simple topspin and which are heavy kickers. Where it would really have been great would be to have had it with Wayne Arthurs who could actually embarrass world class players who misread the direction of the kick he put on his second serve. I'd like to see side by side of those two second serves. But, as I said, you would have to identify it as it was recorded. Something to think else to think about to keep your clones busy!

don

[johnyandell]

Yeah you know this did get me thinking. I agree it's the path of the swing. So I am searching for a wide 1st serve deuce. A down the middle 1st serve ad, and a wide 2nd serve ad.

There is no such thing as purely flat, slice, and topspin of course, but those should cover the range if we can observe them.

Clone 47