Have a Question for Me?

[stotty]

John, Klacr,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MHugAF2DiQ

At 7:54 in the video we get Rick teaching the stroke from the outside backswing position. As is always the case the student simply draws the racket back further from the outside backswing and doesn't pull forward. I've been here countless times. Rick remedies this by making the kid aware of his mistake and tells him to "keep the elbow there"..."elbow up, elbow extension". The problem from here is that a kid can have the elbow up and extended yet can still very easily breach the hitting side of their body. "Elbow up, elbow extension" is not a silver bullet here in terms of prevention.

I was working through all these things with a 12 year old boy at 8:30 this morning. I got him there in the end but will he have retained it when he comes back next week? There is a eureka moment with these things. Around 9:30 on the clip the kid starts to hit some good ones. You can physically see the shoulder engaging. With the kid I coached this morning I got to this same point. It's the best chance coaches have of fully developing the stroke because it's a revelation to the kid and it's the moment when they suddenly start buying into everything you have been saying.

However, kids often get there and then lose it. It's all to easy to lose the stroke or for it to morph into something else. Recently I have been coaching kids for 30 minutes a day for a couple weeks to see if things cement better.

Rick has an ideal student whereas many of mine are often younger and so cannot grasp the concept language-wise. There are great difficulties to overcome when teaching this to younger kids.

I just wonder if there are any other teaching aids that may prevent kids taking the racket back from the outside backswing position? I have even considered using an old fence panel and somehow erecting it so if they take the racket back from the outside backswing, they will hit it.

Stotty

[klacr]

Teaching the Type 3:

Bear in mind I'm a troop on the ground and teaching this stuff every day. I work in development and so am trying to teach this stuff to young (some talented) kids.

So....

I teach the unit turn...get them to feel a pull on the left shoulder....get them to keep the elbow away from the body....then to descend on the diagonal, extending the elbow.

This extending the elbow business seems hard to teach, especially with girls. The elbow desperately wants to creep back in toward the body. It's where things can often go wrong it seems.

I use the outside backswing as an initial teaching aid and drop feed balls to the student. Everything is always good at this point. I can place the elbow where it should be and get them to pull the racket through. But when progressing to basket feeding from the net, things can often go astray when it comes to elbows. Girls (and plenty of boys too ) either collapse the elbow into the body or, worse, go into the outside backswing position but from there draw the racket back further instead of pulling the racket forwards.

I try to teach the movements in segments which works well with some, but again, when you walk round the other side of the net and basket feed the student cannot always hold it together.

How is Mr Macci getting teaching through this point in the stroke? He talks how he can get young kids to do this but is there any footage anywhere which shows him getting kids to do it?

You cannot convey the ATP 3 to kids in terms of language, it has to done through tricks and positions. I am just wondered how Rick himself does it?

It's not that I don't succeed. I often do. I can get some girls to do it really well. But sometimes a month later they have lost it again and are back to a type 2. It's trying stuff.

Any magic bullets here? I like to persevere because the benefits to kids are so great if they can pull it off.

Stotty

Stotty, Valid points. Here is a video of Rick teaching a junior. Maybe you can pick up on how he does it. USPTA produces these "On Court with USPTA" episodes for the Tennis Channel and does it a great job bringing in top coaches. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MHugAF2DiQ

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Teaching the Type 3:

Bear in mind I'm a troop on the ground and teaching this stuff every day. I work in development and so am trying to teach this stuff to young (some talented) kids.

So....

I teach the unit turn...get them to feel a pull on the left shoulder....get them to keep the elbow away from the body....then to descend on the diagonal, extending the elbow.

This extending the elbow business seems hard to teach, especially with girls. The elbow desperately wants to creep back in toward the body. It's where things can often go wrong it seems.

I use the outside backswing as an initial teaching aid and drop feed balls to the student. Everything is always good at this point. I can place the elbow where it should be and get them to pull the racket through. But when progressing to basket feeding from the net, things can often go astray when it comes to elbows. Girls (and plenty of boys too ) either collapse the elbow into the body or, worse, go into the outside backswing position but from there draw the racket back further instead of pulling the racket forwards.

I try to teach the movements in segments which works well with some, but again, when you walk round the other side of the net and basket feed the student cannot always hold it together.

How is Mr Macci getting teaching through this point in the stroke? He talks how he can get young kids to do this but is there any footage anywhere which shows him getting kids to do it?

You cannot convey the ATP 3 to kids in terms of language, it has to done through tricks and positions. I am just wondered how Rick himself does it?

It's not that I don't succeed. I often do. I can get some girls to do it really well. But sometimes a month later they have lost it again and are back to a type 2. It's trying stuff.

Any magic bullets here? I like to persevere because the benefits to kids are so great if they can pull it off.

Stotty

[johnyandell]

Well the responsive site will scale to the ipad. The fact is over 50% of our traffic is on the phone. Worldwide that number is higher and only going up.

[gzhpcu]

I was thinking more in the direction of an iPad than a phone...

[johnyandell]

A long story. More on that later perhaps. It would be a huge challenge for a media intense site like Tennisplayer. And would be limited to the phone. Our real next goal is a responsive mobile friendly site. Then maybe an app for side by side...
And yes through the efforts of Manish our programmer the waiting is over! Welcome back...

[gzhpcu]

John, did you ever consider coming up with a tennisplayer app? (I am finally back!)

[johnyandell]

Thanks!

[seano]

When I searched Rick Macci, clicked on Developing a ATP Forehand Part 2. The ATP Backhand showed up as well on the right side.

[johnyandell]

Thanks! Couldn't find them though...got the url?

[seano]

John -

More of your articles on Youtube. Rick Macci's ATP Forehand and Two Handed Backhands are up, posted by Sports for All & Tennis Coach, FYI

[johnyandell]

I don't see it.Just the one below.

[bottle]

Am just a little troubled by a new screen encroaching into the space one uses to write a post. It has a button that says "Post Reply." Is this just my new computer or does it affect everybody? Thanks. There are other options for replying down below, it seems to me: "Post Reply" there too and "Quote."

[johnyandell]

Stotty,
Sure. But really for me if I can't go frame by frame I feel there is no way to figure out the reality.

[stotty]

Stotty,
There is no such thing as pronation on the serve. Pronation is the rotation of the forearm from the elbow. The rotation you are thinking of his the rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder. That's from the drop to the extension as shown in this article. Calling it pronation is ok as a teaching term. Brian Gordon found though that it simply didn't exist in the serve.


https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ell/the_serve/

Thanks John. I get there is no such thing as pronation, though I doubt the term will fall out of the coaching lexicon any time soon.

I was studying part 2 of the Bruce Elliot article in the archives where he explains pronation is the movement of the forearm, and that pronation plays the role of positioning the racket (racket tip to the left at full extension) for impact. This is what I have always taken pronation to be myself. A course I went to recently had it down as from contact through to hand/arm rotation, so different.

I like your take on things in the video article. It's a better way to look at things, actually. Everything in a smooth serve in so interrelated anyway when you think about.

I am coaching twins (boys) aged 9 at the moment. Both have identical strokes more or less, except on the serve. One has a beautiful motion; the other's is a mess. I don't what went wrong at the start as I wasn't there. I wonder if I can rectify the faulty twin's serve so he can have a serve like his brother? Maybe I will post them on the forum...

Stotty