Have a Question for Me?

[johnyandell]

Anything's possible and I've been proven wrong many times, but my current opinion is that this theory is crazy talk!

I think it's pretty much a straight issue of shoulder flexibility. I've seen Sonic Serve--actually all theory there is from Pat Dougherty not Nick. He's a good friend, but in my opinion Max pushes that hip thrust too far--yeah he had a great serve but I wouldn't say he had the most gorgeous or efficient looking motion. I think that hip thing is more a natural function of the turn and knee bend--and maybe a little tilit and push. And yeah Roger is a little less extreme than Pete. But better that the other way around.

But no matter how low your right shoulder is, it can either rotate backwards in the shoulder joint or not. The more you can do this the better and the easier it seems it is to get a drop with a more abbreviated motion. Seen this time after time with players at all levels. Check out the Paul Goldstein Your Strokes, for example.

[privas]

I enjoyed very much your article on the Federer serve, especially your insight on the arm during the racquet drop being more parallel to the baseline compared to Roddick and Sampras. You emphasized the lack of correlation with the circular path in that the circular path should produce more racquet drop, like Philipoussis.



My theory is that the amount of racquet drop and arm drop is proportional to the preceding right shoulder drop achieved during the “set to launch position” as Nick Bollettieri would call it. To achieve this Nick advocates (at least in his video on the sonic serve) dragging the back foot in during the toss like many players today, but Roddick achieves this position nicely without this foot dragging, helped in part significantly by keeping his feet close together during the wind-up to begin with; and Sampras achieves it by pivoting his left foot on its heel clockwise during the wind-up and his subsequent coiling and forward weight transfer.

In my opinion, it appears that Federer does not achieve much of a “set to launch position” with the left hip thrust forward towards the net, like Sampras and Roddick and Philipoussis. It would seem that this would prevent him from getting the full adequate racquet drop. Perhaps his circular path is a way of compensating for this?



Thanks, Pedro Rivas

[johnyandell]

The toss is traveling on an arc not only to the left, but also forward.

The tossing arm may start parallel to the baseline, but what how it moves forward as it moves upward in this clip.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_serve_body_rotation/ps_serve_body_rotation.html?PS1stSAdBodyRotationSide1.mov

What you want is the image of the path of the toss headed directly toward the contact point. These two intersect--the toss and the racket. Visualizing that arc and that point usually make that happen.

[privas]

One more question about Sampras’ serve on the “Myth of the Toss.” I enjoyed this article very much.

If the Sampras arm is parallel to the baseline at the time of the toss, this explains the sideways arcing component. But how does the toss land “inside the court” and not simply on top of the baseline? Does this occur because of the slight forward weight shift during the toss? How do I get more “forward component” on my “Sampras serve” toss and not simply sideways arcing motion? How does Sampras flatten-out or slice a ball that is in the strike zone for topspin serve?

[johnyandell]

Ok send it on...details on how in Your Strokes section.

[uspta1863382890]

John,


I will get some video of my forehand and send it in, as you suggest. I've been working on my serve for so long that I've long taken my forehand for granted. Plus, the forehand comes relatively easily by contrast. Nevertheless, if I am honest with myself I must concede that my forehand is mediocre.

[johnyandell]

As I frequently say in repsonse to specific stroke questions, the real answer is impossible without seeing video of the stroke.

One of the thing that made Pete's serve so great was his ability to hit all serves off one toss.

If you can't flatten it out somewhat--remember you don't ever want no spin--with the toss you have, you may have pulled it too far left to get spin. But if you move the toss too far right (and usually lower) you may hit too flat.

It's a bad idea to have two tosses and worse motion variations based on them. It's all a compromise. You want to find the ball position that allows you to do a bit of everything and more importantly vary serves at will without tipping the serve off.

So far as the grip Sampras was probably a 1 / 1 with the heel pad and knuckle pretty close to on top. That's a very tough grip for the average player, so yeah, a 2 / 1 or 2 / 1 1/2 is probably the way to go. The speed spin trade off is and should be different for every player. There are no minimal values that this motion produces.

One further thought. One of the things stressed in the articles is that Pete's serve--especially the extreme turn is not for everyone. Analyzing it is not the same as advocating it.

A lot of people skip right over that vital point and think they can copy it. Seen a few Tennisplayer subscribers who had the Sampras stance, but terrible swing paths and contact points. So go in order and make sure you look at yourself on video. Without that these problems are pretty much impossible to solve.

[privas]

Sampras Serve

Dear John,

I am a recent subscriber. I have been experimenting with the Sampras serve as outlined by you. I have found incredible amounts of topspin to be achieved with this serve (which is good since I am only 5’7”); however, when I try to toss the ball more to my right and more in front of me to hit a flatter serve I am having problems with consistency. Perhaps I have the wrong grip (classic continental, bevel 2 for both index knuckle and palm pad)? What grip does Sampras use and does he ever change it? Does the Sampras serve mandate a minimum amount of rotations/topspin?


Thanks, Pedro Rivas, M.D.

[johnyandell]

Uh, power, spin, control...If your wrist isn't ladi back most likely your contact point will be late. If you have a continental grip or a true eastern though the layback isn't always as extreme--not everyone is Federer.

But it's really hard to say without seeing the stroke. Why not send in some video for Your Strokes?

[uspta1863382890]

hitting arm position - forehand

John,

I've obviously overlooked this for quite a long time, but I'm just discovering that my wrist hardly lays back at all on my forehand - what do I lose in my stroke because of this?


Brandon Ferris

[johnyandell]

I you get Quick Time Pro, (a $30 online upgrade from Apple at www.apple.com/downloads) you can download the videos. This allows you to watch them remotely on the hard drive and also control the speed. Open the file in QT Pro and then look under Window and select AV Controller. So you can watch the stroke archive clips in real time or half speed. You can also speed up the high speed video clips.

You can also run them on a Loop, so they repeat over and over and can just be there on your desk top all day! Look under View.

As to the sound. On the clips in the stroke archive there is the sound of the ball and sometimes you can really tell the difference in the speed/spin balance by listening. High speed video though has no audio. It's an interesting idea, but not practical in the context of live matches--no way to get the right microphone to the right place.

Thanks for the great feedback about the site!

[rosheem]

Suggestion for Learning Tool - Serve

Hi John,

I love the site. People I play with find it extremely interesting and somewhat hard to believe that I am improving my game so quickly by watching slow motion videos and reading. You have done an excellent job.

I've been tackling pronation on the serve lately and I'm finally starting to get it. I believe that once you feel the correct motion and timing for yourself, the fun really starts.

I have the feel now, but I must admit that it was quite difficult to get to this point. It took many hours of watching videos, shadowing the stroke, hitting balls, going back to the video, etc.

The good thing about high speed video is being able to see the positions. At super slow-speed, however, it's hard to learn the timing and rhythm. More specifically...it's harder to translate the timing and rhythm from slow speed to real speed.

I thought it might be good to have an option on some videos where we could see it in real speed. Even better, it would be cool if you could record some kind of noise that helped people understand the speed of the racquet (or of any segment in the chain for that matter). Take Brian Gordon's data and record a tone that changes frequency along with change in speed of the racquet. Then just play the frequency along with the video and we would be able to hear AND see the tempo of the racquet through the stroke.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has already done this.

Side note...that close-up high speed video of federers hand as he pronates through a serve (Part 1, page 2 of Fed Serve article) is amazing.

[johnyandell]

Amy,

Welcome to Tennisplayer and tell your women friends! We need more women members. Feel free also to send in video of your forehand and I can give you a better answer to your questions.

Extension is a problem in women, and men, and kids...I'd suggest you work back through the previous forehand articles, particularly the ones on preparation and the backswing.

Without a full turn extension is impossible, and it's true that women even at the pro level tend to have less complete turns. What you need to do is physically model the key positions and then create a mental image of same. The turn, the hitting arm position, the extension.

And video feedback is critical to compare where you are to the models and your images of them. It's an incremental process over time. And yeah I think your hope about improving is reasonable.

John Yandell

[amycooper]

women strokes

Hi, I am a new member. I enjoyed your new article on extension in the forehand but really didn't appreciate it until I went back to one of your earliest "your strokes" videos. (The Megan Matthews forehand which collapses across the body before she hits through the ball.) I'm realizing this is my problem as well, especially on high balls. And, it would seem many, many women who are stuck in 3.0-3.5 range have the same forehand. As there as so few female non-professional strokes on your website I am wondering: is this a common problem for women players who did not grow up playing tennis. Are there additional drills, mental exercises to help women get the full extension on the forehand?

Love the website, and am hopeful I can improve using it.

Thanks so much,
Acooper

[johnyandell]

What I would do is make them work from the sideway racket drop position. They have to wind up and get a complete racket drop before you feed them.

So the move not only turned but with the racket dropped. Create a game where they have to hit 5 in a row without turning back. If they start to turn too soon go back to zero. Now the same game starting with the ready position.