Have a Question for Me?

[stotty]

Teaching the Type 3:

Bear in mind I'm a troop on the ground and teaching this stuff every day. I work in development and so am trying to teach this stuff to young (some talented) kids.

So....

I teach the unit turn...get them to feel a pull on the left shoulder....get them to keep the elbow away from the body....then to descend on the diagonal, extending the elbow.

This extending the elbow business seems hard to teach, especially with girls. The elbow desperately wants to creep back in toward the body. It's where things can often go wrong it seems.

I use the outside backswing as an initial teaching aid and drop feed balls to the student. Everything is always good at this point. I can place the elbow where it should be and get them to pull the racket through. But when progressing to basket feeding from the net, things can often go astray when it comes to elbows. Girls (and plenty of boys too ) either collapse the elbow into the body or, worse, go into the outside backswing position but from there draw the racket back further instead of pulling the racket forwards.

I try to teach the movements in segments which works well with some, but again, when you walk round the other side of the net and basket feed the student cannot always hold it together.

How is Mr Macci getting teaching through this point in the stroke? He talks how he can get young kids to do this but is there any footage anywhere which shows him getting kids to do it?

You cannot convey the ATP 3 to kids in terms of language, it has to done through tricks and positions. I am just wondered how Rick himself does it?

It's not that I don't succeed. I often do. I can get some girls to do it really well. But sometimes a month later they have lost it again and are back to a type 2. It's trying stuff.

Any magic bullets here? I like to persevere because the benefits to kids are so great if they can pull it off.

Stotty

[klacr]

Teaching the Type 3:

Bear in mind I'm a troop on the ground and teaching this stuff every day. I work in development and so am trying to teach this stuff to young (some talented) kids.

So....

I teach the unit turn...get them to feel a pull on the left shoulder....get them to keep the elbow away from the body....then to descend on the diagonal, extending the elbow.

This extending the elbow business seems hard to teach, especially with girls. The elbow desperately wants to creep back in toward the body. It's where things can often go wrong it seems.

I use the outside backswing as an initial teaching aid and drop feed balls to the student. Everything is always good at this point. I can place the elbow where it should be and get them to pull the racket through. But when progressing to basket feeding from the net, things can often go astray when it comes to elbows. Girls (and plenty of boys too ) either collapse the elbow into the body or, worse, go into the outside backswing position but from there draw the racket back further instead of pulling the racket forwards.

I try to teach the movements in segments which works well with some, but again, when you walk round the other side of the net and basket feed the student cannot always hold it together.

How is Mr Macci getting teaching through this point in the stroke? He talks how he can get young kids to do this but is there any footage anywhere which shows him getting kids to do it?

You cannot convey the ATP 3 to kids in terms of language, it has to done through tricks and positions. I am just wondered how Rick himself does it?

It's not that I don't succeed. I often do. I can get some girls to do it really well. But sometimes a month later they have lost it again and are back to a type 2. It's trying stuff.

Any magic bullets here? I like to persevere because the benefits to kids are so great if they can pull it off.

Stotty

Stotty, Valid points. Here is a video of Rick teaching a junior. Maybe you can pick up on how he does it. USPTA produces these "On Court with USPTA" episodes for the Tennis Channel and does it a great job bringing in top coaches. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MHugAF2DiQ

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

John, Klacr,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MHugAF2DiQ

At 7:54 in the video we get Rick teaching the stroke from the outside backswing position. As is always the case the student simply draws the racket back further from the outside backswing and doesn't pull forward. I've been here countless times. Rick remedies this by making the kid aware of his mistake and tells him to "keep the elbow there"..."elbow up, elbow extension". The problem from here is that a kid can have the elbow up and extended yet can still very easily breach the hitting side of their body. "Elbow up, elbow extension" is not a silver bullet here in terms of prevention.

I was working through all these things with a 12 year old boy at 8:30 this morning. I got him there in the end but will he have retained it when he comes back next week? There is a eureka moment with these things. Around 9:30 on the clip the kid starts to hit some good ones. You can physically see the shoulder engaging. With the kid I coached this morning I got to this same point. It's the best chance coaches have of fully developing the stroke because it's a revelation to the kid and it's the moment when they suddenly start buying into everything you have been saying.

However, kids often get there and then lose it. It's all to easy to lose the stroke or for it to morph into something else. Recently I have been coaching kids for 30 minutes a day for a couple weeks to see if things cement better.

Rick has an ideal student whereas many of mine are often younger and so cannot grasp the concept language-wise. There are great difficulties to overcome when teaching this to younger kids.

I just wonder if there are any other teaching aids that may prevent kids taking the racket back from the outside backswing position? I have even considered using an old fence panel and somehow erecting it so if they take the racket back from the outside backswing, they will hit it.

Stotty

[johnyandell]

I like to stand behind them with a tennistube or a racket that they bang into if they go too far back. But I will say this as much as I believe in this aspect of the stroke. I will give away a little extra backswing in exchange for a great turn and great extension. 99.9% of all players couldn'tr exchange forehands with Maria Sharapova.

[klacr]

Stotty,

I start off with hand feeding them balls and put my teaching basket behind them to prevent the racquet from going back. Once they get the idea, I then progress to feeding the balls from across the net and give them a visual cue of their racquet tip being a paint brush and they have a blank canvas next to them, I tell them not to let the tip of the paint brush off the canvas. Many students seem to capture that visual and then achieve success.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Thanks Klacr and John.

I think we can all coach this one way or another. The bigger problem is cementing it. It's all too easy for kids to regress back outside of lessons.

Interesting how the better boys often seem to get there on their own. Some coaches don't coach the ATP 3...some don't even know it exists. Yet their better boys somehow self-learn it. One assumes they do this by imitating great players and intuition. I remember reading that Pancho Gonzales learned his strokes mostly from watching others. If you're a talented kid and a visual learner, it's a valid and terrific way to learn, isn't it?

I imitated Nastase when I was a kid. Did I get even close? Hey, we both land on the wrong foot!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4joc07_stotty_sport

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4wr4q2

Stotty

[johnyandell]

I agree with everything in this post!

[jschaff]

Yes that's too far! Go look at the Sampras serves in the regular archives. That is the human limit--and I think you are beyond it...Then for a more reasonable position, look for Fed in the high speed archives. At your age I think that could be really hard on your shoulder--or anyone's at any age. It's kinda amazing you can even do it.
But you need to take the spin you can get with a reasonable ball position.

Anyone else want to chime in on this??

I am 62 and played 5.0 in my 20's. Not now. But watching and reading the Sampras serve articles and videos has radically changed and improved my serve. Just moving the toss to the left a little keeps my racket on the ball more solidly as it makes my body rotate thru the ball. I'm not having to control the racket with my arm and shoulder.

[johnyandell]

JS,
Fab! Look at some of the Fed serves from rear view in the high speed archives as well.

[stotty]

John,

I am coaching a kid with a two-hander. His elbows are bent-bent. Does this characteristically make the shoulders line up parallel with the baseline on contact with the ball (click example link below)? I notice Serena seems to be. Djokovic's shoulders are still a little turned on contact. Is this a configuration thing?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x51u9nf

Stotty

[johnyandell]

I think he is too open!

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Serena_Williams_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/SW_BH_Center&stroke=BH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Front%20240fps.mp4

[stotty]

I think he is too open!

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...t%20240fps.mp4

Thanks John. I gave the kid his first lesson yesterday. He's a phenomenal athlete but his backhand needs work. As you can see his contact point is way out in front. Both arms are extremely bent and close to the body. It's amazing to work with a youngster this athletic, though.

Is it his closed racket face that is preventing his hand and arm rotation, which in turn limits his ability to lower the racket head?

Stotty

[klacr]

Thanks John. I gave the kid his first lesson yesterday. He's a phenomenal athlete but his backhand needs work. As you can see his contact point is way out in front. Both arms are extremely bent and close to the body. It's amazing to work with a youngster this athletic, though.

Is it his closed racket face that is preventing his hand and arm rotation, which in turn limits his ability to lower the racket head?

Stotty

Gotta agree. Stotty, he seems a bit too open.

Great article in the your strokes section on this issue that may help. It features everyone's favorite Swiss/Italian. Check it out.http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...h_3_01_06.html

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[Guest]

Stotty,
He might be a natural one hander---at the very least he needs to hit left handed forehands to feel the hand and racket path with the back arm--looks like it's sliding right into his body rather than coming out and around.

[johnyandell]

Opps that's me, a guest at my own site....