Flattening out a Forehand

[keifan]

I have difficulty in flattening out my forehand (less topspin, more drive) while maintaining my full Semi Western grip. Is the only way to flatten the forehand out more by reducing the more extreme grip back to Eastern FH? I'd rather not have two forehand grips. No matter how I try to come less vertically steep into the ball (more horizontal swing path), the SW grip and laid back wrist (with palm facing almost up) always drops the racquet head really low and thus a lot of topspin and less forward drive. I have had pros look at my grip and it is SW, not full Western.

[rosheem]

If you haven't already, I would check out the "Building the Modern Forehand" section of Advanced Tennis.

In "Grip Structures in the Modern Forehand, Part 2" there are some great points that may address your issue.

There is also a clip of Roddick in the 4/4 Grip Paragraph...the one with the caption about a high contact point not being a problem with the extreme semi-western (not saying yours is extreme sw). Anyway, in that clip you can see that he is driving through the ball with a high-to-high swing path and he does not let the racquet head get way under the ball.

As it relates to your issue...I wonder if you just aren't seeing many balls that high in your strike zone? Trying to flatten out a ball at knee-height with a semi-western grip is just inherently difficult. Also, if you tend to take the ball as it descends from its peak, you may be forced to drop the racquet further under the ball, which will make it tough to flatten it out.

Hope that helps. I have the same problem. When I hit with other guys who hit big topspin with semi-western grips, an entire new world starts to open up for me. I start feeling a level of power and control that just isn't there when I face guys who hit lower, flatter balls with less spin. In fact, until I finally started hitting with these big-hitting juniors and 4.5 + level players, I never even really knew what it felt like to drive THROUGH the ball. I had always only hit with a pretty steep low-to-high plane because my contact height was probably around knee-high.

The club-level conundrum is that in order to hit balls higher in the zone, you usually need to move forward because the opponents aren't putting enough pace or spin on the ball for it to penetrate the court. This means you'll have to commit to a more aggressive style of play, AND...you won't have as much margin for depth error because you've got less distance to work with. Hmmm...what to do?

You could change your grip to match your average contact height.

You could change your style so that you aren't trying to flatten the ball out and just stick to using depth and angles.

You could change your style to take more balls at the peak of their trajectory. (First you might need to really groove the more high-to-high swing path so you get the feel for taking the ball higher up in the zone)

You could also figure out how Nadal manages the apparent mismatch between his grip and his average contact height. I spent about a week hitting like Nadal and had lots of fun with it. Maybe my right bicep grew a little bit, but my game didn't seem to improve.

Anyway...on a more practical level...see if you can hit with someone who hits a big ball so that it almost forces you to take it higher and drive through it. Then...take the feel you got there and see if you can use it to groove something that works for the average ball you are playing against.

[keifan]

Thanks for the advice, Rosheem. I looked at the "building a modern forehand" section and concluded that I use a 4/4 grip. I see the concept of raising the contact zone based on this grip but my problem is more excessive racquet head drop as I approach contact. The racquet head drops dramatically because I rotate the forearm backwards (supination) in order to get the racquet face vertical ("on edge") as I approach contact since it is semi closed at the start of the forward swing (4/4 grip). It seems if I don't rotate backwards (inside of forearm now facing the sky) before I swing forward, the racquet face is still closed at contact and the ball goes into the net. How do you get from a closed racquet face at the start of the forward swing to a vertical racquet face at contact without rotating the forearm backwards at some point? Any tips on getting rid of this backwards forearm rotation step and resultant excessive racquet head drop would be appreciated?

[rosheem]

If you have the ability to post a video of your forehand, you might get some more involvement in your thread and we might uncover some more fundamental issues that would help us deal with your problem. Video works wonders.

But let's take a stab at it anyway.

There are a number of ways to approach it, but in my opinion it might help if you allowed yourself to get comfortable with the feel of making contact with a slightly closed racquet face. You mentioned that you are rotating the forearm open in order to get the racquet face vertical at contact. See if you can get a feel for keeping it somewhat closed...even if it's only five degrees or so.

You will hit a bunch of balls into the net at first. To compensate, you might have to add some lift from the legs and shoulder as you drive through the ball. This will hopefully give you a slightly different feel for contact.

My theory is that some players learn to hit with topspin by coming into the ball with a very slightly open racquet face and then using hand/wrist rotation to close the face through contact. The result is a high-arcing ball that has plenty of roll, but is difficult to flatten out. I struggled with the same issue for a long time.

If you read my other thread, you'll get my description of a different way to put spin on the ball...one where you hit more of the top of the ball than the bottom. By striving to achieve this feel, your arm will start to figure things out on its own and eventually figure out that you don't need to rotate way under that ball. It is possible that since you have always created spin by grabbing the bottom of the ball and rolling up, you've never really had to use the bigger muscles to create lift. The classic instruction is that topspin is created by brushing up the back of the ball. I think a better kind of topspin is created when you can start to feel your strings grabbing the ball and the entire mass of your arm and shoulder are lifting at the moment of grab. You have to hit hundreds of balls to develop the feel, but I think it is the gateway to developing the ability to drive through the ball.

Another way to approach this is to simply create a closer relationship with the ball itself. Keep your eyes focused on the contact point and take your normal stroke and see if you can really feel the exact spot on the ball you are hitting. Now simply just move that spot up a little and drive more straight through it. Your arm might figure the rest out on its own.

I really believe that a focus on the technical positions is great for understanding the strokes, but perhaps not so great for changing bad stroking habits. I think it is better to get a different feel for contact first and then let the body work out the rest on its own. This may not be the approach that suits everyone, but it has really worked for me.

In reality, we may just be talking about a very slight shift in racquet face angle, which is all it takes. But if you've been hitting it one way for long enough, even a slight change will feel extremely different.

[keifan]

Once again, thanks for your input Rosheem. The idea of grabbing the top of the ball vs brushing the back of the ball is unfortunately, well beyond my conceptual grasp and skill level. After reading K. Mitchell's article on forehand grips and 1) visually keeping the racquet head above your wrist and 2) allowing yourself to approach contact with a closed racquet face, I decided that I will work on these 2 things before resorting to hitting every forehand with a lot of topspin. As you stated, I'm sure my body will compensate in order to get the balls over the net.

[sejsel]

I have difficulty in flattening out my forehand (less topspin, more drive) while maintaining my full Semi Western grip. Is the only way to flatten the forehand out more by reducing the more extreme grip back to Eastern FH?

No, not at all, and You shouldn't resort to such means in order to flatten-out the stroke - forehand in this case. The answer lies elsewhere, both in theory (observation and tracking down what happens) and implementing the change during the process of "adapting" the stroke, or rectifying what could be "wrong".

Look at the footage of Kuertens forehand drive in the Kerry Mitchell's article on understanding grips - forehand.

He is given as an example of the full western grip, yet one can easily see how he brings racquet wery early into the "hitting arm position" and has plenty of time since then to make contact with the ball. That might be the culprit, and the way of starting the solving of the problem in your case.

Read on (if You are not familiar with the term) the definition of "hitting arm position" in John Yandell's series on forehand.

What is also relevant in this footage for your case is the path of the Kuertens racquet, from the point he points at the ball with the butt cap of his racquet, when he brings the racquet face more or less (already!) perpendicular to the ground, towards the contact with the ball - and that path is rather straight, or flat.

I'd rather not have two forehand grips.

And You shouldn't, since this would be likely to cause a complete havoc (conscious, non-automatically induced, grip shifts on the same stroke) with your muscle memory on the given shot.

Some small adjustments are always made in the grips, in many cases at pro level, but this is a spontaneous, automatic process evolved during the course of years of training and match play.
I wouldn't claim that this happens with every player, but it certainly does in many cases.

No matter how I try to come less vertically steep into the ball (more horizontal swing path), the SW grip and laid back wrist (with palm facing almost up) always drops the racquet head really low and thus a lot of topspin and less forward drive.

Which is really a pointer to possibly two things: one is your imagery of the stroke, and that in turn could have caused what is now a muscle memory that makes You execute the stroke in certain (non flat) fashion.

This is probably why late Tim Gullikson (former coach of Pete Sampras) and Robert Lansdorp and many experienced coaches insisted and still do on getting the feel for hitting through the ball, and being able to hit "through" the ball before starting with top spin technique.

What is the right method for getting rid of your problem, and being able to hit flat, powerfull drive that You can place anywhere in the court and mixing it - when situation dictates it - with powerfull, agressive topspun shots, still producing a speedy ball - well, what rosheem suggested might work.

I personally had a somewhat different approach that worked really well (and can be almost deduced from what I have written thus far), but it does demand some effort in both mental and visual imagery, understanding of stroke mechanics at some level, knowing what methods to imply, and most of all being fully comitted to:
- the certain, "correct" model of the stroke
- implementing the change fully.

It would do a world of good if You can obtain the footage of Your stroke; problem can be often something You don't tend to think about Yourself (see some of John Yandell's remarks in his article in the latest issue on improving the serve).

It can also make You more aware of correspondence of Your mental imagery of Your stroke (how You see it) and how it looks in reality.

I am consciously not offering any "do this, do that" kind of advice at this stage, what rosheem suggests might work, but again, the footage of your stroke would be very valuable.

I have had pros look at my grip and it is SW, not full Western.

Which is, again, just fine!

[sejsel]

I think it is better to get a different feel for contact first and then let the body work out the rest on its own.

Couldn't be more true.

This is one step (among others) in solving this problem, and it is probably the most important one.

[10splayer]

Keifan,

You really should check out the "Academy Ball" video with Lansdorp. With his typical, simplistic brilliance, he basically advocates aiming the god$$$$$$******sonof!!!!!!!!!*** thing lower. By controlling trajectory, one implicitly, begins to understands how the hand and arm needs to move on the vertical plane, to produce flatter drives. At least that's what i took from it.