Interactive Forum February 2010: Roger Federer Serve - High Speed

[llll]

could some one explain to me the difference between the old fed serve motion and what he does now as alludded to by bottle.

[bottle]

My Answer

Does "someone" include me, or am I somehow disqualified? I think I did explain this before, earlier in this thread. But what does that matter? It's whether you, IIII, understand the difference or perceived difference. And thanks for the question by the way. I was hoping for input on this matter, which is central to my personal, self-interested concern since I serve every day and want to do the best job of it possible given my physique.

Let's explore your question through taking a visual trip. You'll have to go with me. We'll start by looking at the first video in post # 1 of this thread. Note especially two simultaneous things: Roger's hitting arm folding up and his head going down as his knees compress. The arm is completely squeezed together by the time his Swiss head is at its lowest point-- no?

Now let's click on "New Issue" and then click on "True Serving," the last item. First up, the old (young) Roger Federer-- an earlier version of his serves in my fevered imagination.

Again, in the spirit of scientific inquiry, note the same two simultaneous things. The head goes down exactly the same way-- no?-- but the arm only folds to a right angle. And that is the huge difference.

If you change one thing as central as this, of course, you'll end by changing a bunch of smaller things as well. Foremost among them, I would suggest, is sliding the elbow down low, followed by more available range of motion next when it comes time to throw that elbow up.

Of course, my use of the word "throw" could be loaded. But I don't think so. When you only bend arm to a right angle on the press, the elbow goes up passively in reaction to leg thrust, and it gets high sooner, which is less effective, I believe (since I now seem to be hitting the best kick serves of my life at age 70).

As I tried to indicate before (and this IS allusion), I don't know whether a ball-girl suggested this change to Roger, or whether he still serves the other way two thirds of the time-- haven't done the research. Haven't even had time to apply the new idea to a first serve yet since hard kickers have been the elusive goal for me.

Would welcome elucidation on these points. Not getting it though won't bother me, since, according to Andre Agassi, "Tennis is the sport where you talk to yourself." In any case, I'll just persevere with what is, I freely confess, great excitement.

[rosheem]

Bottle -

In response to your question about where Roger makes contact on the ball:

Top/right (from his perspective or from behind the baseline)

How sure am I on that one?

Not very.

I've looked at it about a thousand times. Compared it to clips of similar serves that I found here and in other places. Thought about it from a number of different perspectives. Consulted page 148 of "Technical Tennis". I still can't figure it out.

I could say that the ball flies in a direction perpendicular to what I call the "crush axis". Not sure if I made that term up but you probably get what I mean...the ball rebounds at 90 degrees from the flat surface formed by its compression. If that is the case, you would look at where the ball went and say that it was hit directly behind where it flew. So if it goes to down and to the right, it was hit from up and to the left...which is NOT what I see.

I see it being hit on the upper-right side. When I hit the serve myself, it feels more like I'm hitting the upper-right side. What may be happening is that I'm contacting more of the left side, but exiting contact over the right side, so it feels like the right side.

I don't know, man...the whole damn thing is just a mind bender if you ask me. I hate winter. Can't just drag my basket and video camera up to the courts. All I know is that I can hit a nice kicker out wide and get it in the box most of the time. But it's not because I know exactly what's going on in the video. It's because I've hit about a million of them and also because I put so much into the ball that it has no choice but to spin into the box.

That is not to say I didn't WISH I knew exactly what was going on in the video. If that was the case, I would start every match with a nasty kicker into the body on the deuce side, followed by a nasty kicker out wide to the ad side. Kicker to body. Kicker out wide. Kicker down T. Kicker to body. Repeat as necessary. Drive opponent to nearest mental health facility.

[uspta925756625]

New HD SlowMo

Hi John,
Wow this new video is exceptional. This could really help.
Cliff Price
Totally Tennis, Inc.
Tulsa, OK
USPTA

[llll]

I think I did explain this before, earlier in this thread. But what does that matter? It's whether you, IIII, understand the difference or perceived difference.
First up, the old (young) Roger Federer-- an earlier version of his serves in my fevered imagination.
Would welcome elucidation on these points.
Not getting it though won't bother me, since, according to Andre Agassi, "Tennis is the sport where you talk to yourself." In any case, I'll just persevere with what is, I freely confess, great excitement.

bottle im glad at 70 you have the best kicker of your life.
i dont follow your explanation.
stay passionate and excited

[bottle]

Federer II Serves

Rosheem, top right is what I see and try to do, also. Nope, I now reject the notion of hitting the ball at seven o'clock or at center point of the clock face, at least if imitating this one match point we all can talk about. And if you look around the web for testimonies by people who have finally gotten on top of their kick serves (loaded), that's what you'll find, at least in one case, they got on top of their kick serves. The dude talks about cutting a tennis ball in half and just visualizing hitting the ball on that top half. To make this easier to understand we could imagine that he threw the lower half in his disposall,
and then placed the upper hemisphere on a table as if to play a shell game.
So he sits there or stands, which would be healthier, and stares down at the upper half of the non-rolling tennis ball, which he thinks resembles the dome of a nuclear power plant, and resolves to make contact on that dome. Actually, I think, he was recommending contact on the upper left quadrant. Not me. I'm upper right quadrant all the way, baby.

So, IIII, just think about that and forget anything else I may ever have said in my life. Maybe the simplest instruction is the best. I'll hold to my central belief, though. ALL TENNIS INSTRUCTION IS TOO DETAILED OR NOT DETAILED ENOUGH.

Jason Robertson, teaching and playing pro of northwestern Virginia, had great success by simply urging his students to draw their hand to a strong throwing position just behind the neck.

With the Federer II serves, the strongest hand throwing position may be somewhat lower, or if not that, then with elbow lower. Once one has reached this point of view, i.e., decided this new position is a good idea, one should perhaps pick up a baseball or a tennis ball and practice getting smoothly to this position with weight on compressed front knee in a platform stance.

My last match was 6-0, 6-0. "But who were you playing," the bartender at Swaim's Grocery asked me last night. It was a person who just had a lens
put in his left eye. But the lens is working well. And he's thinking of putting another in his right eye. And he didn't like the higher, faster kick serves from me, which is a description of reality, as far as I'm concerned, not of my wishful passion.

But here's a new clip of Federer serving out wide, ad court, second serve, 2009 archive. You can see that Roger's forming a right angle in his arm, not pinching the two halves together as he bends his body in a number of different directions.

So the change he made at Cincinnati is recent. My guess is that match point had arrived. The ball-girl, who had practice caddying for her father in golf, suggested that since Roger just became the father of twins, he should draw in his elbow and get it down and pinch his forearm against his biceps. And they won!

Not like this, though:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_2nd_serve/rf_2nd_serve.html?RF2ndSAdCourtLevelRear.mov

The Djoker would have creamed that one.

[johnyandell]

Hey Cliff,

Good to hear from you. I'll be in Tulsa mid May so I'll try to stop by the store?
How's Nathan doing?

John

[rachelrun]

Every coach tells me to snap my wrist or allow my wrist to fold over the top of the shot, or "pronate." Unfortunately that hurts my wrist to the extent that I am always working to keep tendonitus on the ulnar side, at bay.

So you can see how this video is important to me. I'm watching it to see where and when any pressure hits his wrist. It appears to me that his arm rotates outward as it pulls upward through the motion towards contact. The wrist does not simply snap forward as if he was shooting his racquet like a basketball free throw. Instead his wrist appears to rotate together with the forearm, outward.

Maybe I will show this to my current coach for further discussion of the use of the term "wrist snap".

[johnyandell]

Great idea. The wrist moves from laid back to neutral pre-contact, but doesn't break forward. The dominant motion is the rotation of the hitting arm and racket as you have observed.