Two-Handed Forehand (Monica Seles Style)

[lukman41985]

What do you think of using the two-handed forehand, Monica Seles variation (dominant hand always on bottom), as a way to develop the forehand? If developmental success is achieved, what are your thoughts about keeping this stroke pattern permenantly?

[johnyandell]

I don't buy that whole argument, although I know Dave Smith has had success with that approach. I don't think the one-handed forehand is that hard to develop--or that it's easier with two.

[andrew]

Help required

A nasty bout of tennis elbow (not caused by tennis sadly enough) has really been restricting my ability to hit through the ball on the forehand due to the pain. Becuase it hurt more hitting single-handed backhands and volleying really hurt, I started mucking around with a double-handed backhand and then tried double-handed forehands - BINGO: A) There is virtually no pain B) I was instantly consistent and powerful. Whereas my forehand use to drift towards the centre line I can now nail it down the line and my cross court shots are fantastic. Problems? A lack of reach is a headache and you have to really get your feet set, but you have no choice but to really turn your shoulders and drive forward in to the ball (hence the consistency I suspect). I wasn't expecting a huge leap in the power and direction of my volleys either but it is there. Having said all that I cannot find any advice on how to hit this shot so I am making it up as I go along. My dominant hand is the bottom of the racket with a semi-western grip and my left hand is on top. I hold the racket upright, turn my shoulders, taking a compact backswing and hit with weight on my front foot (left one) taking the ball in line with my left shoulder i.e. a bit later than with a single handed forehand - is this all OK?

[lukman41985]

andrew, sorry about your tennis elbow injury.

First off: I would suggest you take atleast a short break from the game, maybe a week. Also, work on strengthening the area because rest alone will not suffice--the injury will come back if you do not strengthen. Check out this link: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...zation_13.html Focus on the forehand extensor workout. Remember: go with low weight and high rep--in tennis, you want muscular endurnace, not mass. Also try to do some bicep curls with the high rep, low weight approach. I've found that I often get pains in my arm when I use a lot of bicep in my forehands to go up the back of the ball with topspin. Strengthening this area has helped to relieve the pain I felt, but I got rid of the pain by eliminating this move from my stroke all together.

Secondly: The two-handed forehand, as you know, is extremely rare. The reason is obvious. Because it is most commonly paired with the two-handed backhand, the player is severly limited in reach and huge demands are placed on footwork. This can cause problems in not just the highest levels of the game, but also in the lower levels as well. An instructor on another instructional site, Dave Smith, likes to talk about how two-handed strokes are a tool to develop proper stroke patterns and good footwork. I don't really agree with him. Good footwork doesn't come from changing your strokes--things aren't quite as easy as that! But anyways, because footwork seems to be the main issue with players 5.0 and below, I would say going two-handed on both sides would be an unwise move considering how much you are going to have to work your feet. Throw in the fact that any experienced player will probe you with low slices and you have a recipe for frustration and a return to your injury-causing one-handed strokes. This brings me to my third point.

Thirdly: I suggest that you study the commonalities article John has done on the forehand. The commonalities will give you the common elements amongst all good one-handed forehands. After that, study the differences between the grip styles articles. Starting off, try to adhere as best you can to what is considered normal for your grip style in terms of racket face angle, shoulder rotation, and hand/arm rotation. Pay close attention to how you rotate your hand and arm in your forehand stroke because this, and/or some wristiness, maybe the cause of your injury. Again, the forearm training exercises will help your strengthen these muscles. Remember to really try to visualize what the pros are doing and what you need to be doing. John's given some great advice in the article on how to do that. If you want more information, check out his introduction to Visual Tennis in the Teaching Systems section of the site.

Lastly: If you still experience pain in your elbow even after extensive strengthening and working to incorporate the forehand fundamentals into your stroke, send in some tape of your one-handed forehand into John and maybe you'll make it into "Your Strokes" or get some sort of analysis. You could also try posting video of yourself directly to the forum. You should also go see a doctor versed in sports injuries.

God knows tennis elbow is one of the worst things that can happen to a tennis player. I wish you all the best in a successful recovery and in developing whichever stroke you choose. You'll notice I haven't said much about the two-handed forehand. Personally, I think that is the wrong way to go--the whole reinventing the wheel thing. But, here is Dave Smith's e-mail: acrpres1@email.msn.com It's only fair that you hear arguments from the other side. The two-handed forehand seems to be his specialty.

[andrew]

Many thanks for your very thorough reply. I did take a few weeks off and that certainly helped, but like many others I seem to be in a permanent but managable state. I've had a lot of physio and acpuncture but the lure of the court is too strong.

Taking your points I can see where you are coming from and I had not considered the aspects of dealing with slice - the two hander works well against heavy top-spin at waist to shoulder height; outside of that range is a problem. The funny thing is that it does force you to most things right; unit turn, swing with the body, keep the wrist firm, hit through and finish well; will I be able to do this in competition - pass. I think you hit the nail on the head with the suggestion of wristiness. My biggest weakness is releasing the wrist too soon and this may have contributed to my tennis elbow but I am wild with a straight wrist and in too much pain with a laid back wrist held through ball contact.

I don't really know where to go from here but I will work on the strengthing as you suggest and continue to encompass the techniques so well explained on this website and hopefully things will sort themselves out.

[lukman41985]

andrew,
As hard as you may try, your words will never be enough to describe your struggles. You should really think about filming yourself. The video will tell the story. It's the fastest way to find your faults. Strengthening is great, but the world's biggest body builders wouldn't stand a chance against a competent player. You really need to look into your technique. You sound like you love the game. To keep playing you need to make sure you play in a way that you want to play, but also in a way that keeps you healthy. Moving on...just wondering: what kind of racquet you are playing with? Perhaps your equipment may have something to do with this. A racquet that is too heavy, too head heavy, or too stiff would definitely cause some wrist problems. For wrist problems, an ideal racquet would be something that is about 12 ounces, about 10 points headlight, and flexible (RA of 63 or lower). Perhaps AJ, Scott Murphy, or Marius can chime in here. So just say what racquet you are playing with. What string/tension? Do you add lead tape or any other sort of weight and where?

[johnyandell]

The only thing I'll say is that your description of your stroke sounds pretty darn good technically. You've also got JMG in the Archive for a two-handed model--at least on some of his forehands.

I wouldn't worry too much about the strategic liabilities...you may end up sticking with it, but hopefully you get your elbow healthy. Be careful about doing any weight training that hurts when you are injured! You should probably find an orthopod with some experience in tennis injuries!

[johnyandell]

One other thing. If you visit the TennisWarehouse message boards,
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44
rightnow there are two threads about the two-handed forehand.

[lukman41985]

Monica Seles, not JMG

andrew,
JMG is actually not the best model to look at for your two-handed forehand. From your description it sounds like you are a right-hander who, on his forehand, has his right, dominant hand on the bottom of the grip and the left, non-dominant hand on the top of the grip. This cross-handed grip is similar to what Monica Seles used to do. I differ with John here. I humbly think you should focus on Monica. If you are having a difficult time translating Monica's left-handed forehand into a right-hand model, check out some JMG videos. But remember, he does not have your grip structure. He actually switches the position of his hands between the forehand and backhand.

[andrew]

I've had a lot of help from David Smith who is an exponent of the two-hander. The grip is Eastern for both hands, so your palms are effectively facing each other. Previously I had the left almost sitting on top of the right ie.e continental left over semi-western right. My backswing was also wrong as I was going from upright to a loop, whereas he wants it straight back and down- you cannot help but close the face with at the same time.

Results? The power and accuracy from the mid-court is impressive. I always struggled to put away a slow paced sit-up and beg ball - with this stroke you can hit very hard and very flat. Side to side accuracy is very good. It also easier to hit a running cross court. Downsides? If your footwork is sloppy you cannot compensate with your arm and wrist and you end up with a right mess.

JMG's stroke is not a model here as he has his left hand on the butt of the racket and lets go after impact. Monica's is technically right but a bit difficult to look at because she is lefthanded so it does your head in.

I will try and get a video done.

PS My elbow loves it. My wife thinks I look like an idiot!

[lukman41985]

andrew,
David Smith is a very good tennis instructor. I'm glad he could help you out. I'm glad you're enjoying your tennis playing experience right now. That's the most important thing. JMG isn't the model--you're right. Monica is a more correct model--not totally because she's left handed. Additionanly, looking at the excellent arm action clips John took of Monica's forehand, I was able to discern that her top hand was in a continental and the bottom in a semi-western. So her grip structure is different from yours. It's understandable you've moved away from a loop backswing to more of a straight backswing. This is actually what John advocates as well (in addition to Dave Smith). They are actually in the minority in the world of tennis coaching on this though. However, I agree with them. And you seem to as well! All the best!

[johnyandell]

Guys,

Great discussion! This is exactly how I have imagined the Forum functioning. And have to agree about the grips. But three things with JMG: first he doesn't always let go. He hits through the ball beautifully when he has the time--check the extension. AND his posture is way better as a model than Monica's, who is alwasy hunched over. So there is something to be flet and absorbed here

[lukman41985]

John,
Thanks for the great clip! I have to agree with you on everything you just said there, especially the point about posture. I wonder where JMG has been. The last I heard of him, Brad Gilbert was putting him on his list of slowest players, along with Taylor Dent. Man, I wish Taylor would focus more on his fitness. Was that ever something you two discussed during your time together?

[johnyandell]

You're a tough man to satisfy. JMG is JMG--I've seen him play many times. He gets a tremendous amount out of his talent, which is ball striking. He could run sprints twice a day til he puked and he would still never move half as well as Roger Federer.

I think what we may miss is just how difficult it is to win one match on the ATP much less hang around the top 50 for many years like JMG. To me, he's realized his potential.

As for Taylor and his fitness: I never mentioned that--it's not my expertise and not what I was brought in to do. Again, you have to realize players are pretty much who they are. Taylor is Taylor. He is amazing in so many ways (I love his serve and volley sequences on Tennisplayer, mainly the volleys themselves.) It was obvious from his time in the juniors that he would probably be a pro. But he's just not as athletic as the truly elite players, and also very up and down emotionally. Think of the role players on NBA teams--in the right circumstance you may see them have a shining moment. Maybe Taylor will get to the semis of Wimby or the US.