Forehand Troubleshooting - Depth Errors

[rosheem]

Hi all,

Have you ever worked with a player who hits the forehand with too much arc and often hits too deep?

I don't make many forehand errors because my stroke has so much spin and net clearance. When I do miss, it's deep.

What bothers me, is that when I miss deep despite not trying to hit hard and not really aiming for the back line. It's the unexpected errors that bother me.

I believe it has something to do with my racquet face angle on contact. My hypothesis is that when I supinate my forearm during the forward swing, my arm and hand become very, very loose. I'm wondering if things are so loose that I am losing an awareness of my racquet face angle...or just loosing my connection to the racquet. When I then accelerate the racquet, if it is even slightly too open, the ball shoots off high. It feels like I'm getting under the ball too much.

Sorry...I don't have any good video angles to demonstrate, so if this problem is unfamiliar to you, please just disregard. But if you have first-hand experience with this issue or have helped a student through it, I would really appreciate any tips.

My grip is about a 4/3.5 or a 4/4. I've tried to play around with going further west to close the face, but somehow my brain overrides this and it doesn't help.

[airforce1]

I'm sure you will get some very good answers from the other fine coaches on here, but I would repeat 2 things we have discussed that work together very well with this issue.

1- step to open stance (vs neutral)
2- use this step to pull and accel up and across the ball

I feel strongly that this crossing TS motion,
combined with stepping open (not stepping into the shot),
work well together to give excellent depth control consistently.

Maybe you are already working this, as we have discussed, but maybe you are not keeping both combined and working together each time (or on misses)
I know I missed a couple long, day before yesterday in singles, from the old habit of stepping in to neutral on a mid court ball attack shot.

[airforce1]

looks like what I wrote could be read more than one way so I will try to be clearer.


what I wrote assumes the outside foot (RT foot for a righty) is already loaded and
then you step to open with the left foot, (opposed to stepping closed or neutral) as you pull/accel up and across to your finish on the stroke.

[tcuk]

Working thru a problem like this just via the written word is guesswork at best. Can't you upload a video via youtube? I'm sure there are handful of coaches who could help you out if they had a clip to look at.

[rosheem]

Sorry guys, I had posted a link to a video in a reply to my own original post, but something went wrong. I see that it did not make it up here.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoqPgeHclU8&feature=channel

Go straight to the :50 second mark in the video. Right after the real-speed version, the same forehand plays again at a slower speed.

What happens is that even with this footwork pattern and apparent pulling up and across the ball, I sometimes let the racquet face roll, fall, or drop open just before contact. It's as if I am creating lag in the racquet before contact, but in doing so, losing a bit of control over the face and letting it roll open too much.

Here are two more, if you go straight to the 1:00 mark. These are only in real-speed, but these are two consecutive forehand approach shot errors that were too deep. I am purposely using the 1-foot hop footwork pattern on these, although I can also hit these by getting up to the ball first and using open stance. At real-speed, it's hard to see what's going on with the racquet face, but you can get a sense that I'm having to wiper over these balls dramatically to try to muscle them down into the court. Again, I think it's related to just being to open with the face prior to contact...but that's why I'm posting...to get any additional ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwZuPTXfSUU&feature=channel

Thanks again! Sorry about not getting the clips up earlier in the thread.

[rosheem]

what I wrote assumes the outside foot (RT foot for a righty) is already loaded and
then you step to open with the left foot, (opposed to stepping closed or neutral) as you pull/accel up and across to your finish on the stroke.

Sorry, airforce. I replied to you earlier to say thanks for the clarification and post some clips, but the post didn't make it up.

[10splayer]

Rosheem,

I just really think you need to turn off the ball more. Encorporating the left arm stretch, (which has been discussed at length) and the feel of turning the shoulders, further than the hips. I just dont see enough differential between your shoulder line and hip line, at the top of your backswing. BTW, if you've only just started playing, you're way ahead of the curve. You obviously were/are a pretty high caliber athlete. Keep up the the good work.

P.S. Do not go more underneath with your grip. 4/4 is plenty strong enough.

[airforce1]

Sorry, airforce. I replied to you earlier to say thanks for the clarification and post some clips, but the post didn't make it up.

can you send me your email ?
thanks

[oliensis]

I would humbly submit the following observation:
The consistent thing I notice in your videos, on both wings, (including backhand slice) is that there's not a strong enough connection between the path of the racquet head and the path of the ball as they meet. It kind of looks like you're hitting an idea of the ball and not the ball as it's actually moving. And I think a lot of the issues you describe derive from not making this connection better.

What to do about it?

In my experience, playing mini-tennis is helpful for this. It helps develop a better feeling for the ball. (By mini-tennis I mean rallying with both players standing at the service line and hitting the ball so that it lands inside the other player's service box. Use appropriate footwork, knee bend, and swing path, but focus on feeling the ball not "whacking" it. If you don't feel the ball it either flies long or dribbles into the net.)

This exercise helps me get the feeling of connecting the path of the racquet head with the path of the incoming shot. Not hitting so much as catching it, letting the body feel it as it contacts the strings, and then carving it back over the net in a very specific arc. It's that feeling of carving the actual ball that is the "connection" I"m talking about.

FWIW
AO

[rosheem]

It kind of looks like you're hitting an idea of the ball and not the ball as it's actually moving. And I think a lot of the issues you describe derive from not making this connection better.

I wonder if that is why sometimes my idea of the ball lands right where I want it to, but the actual ball that is moving does not!

Kidding, but I get what you are saying. In just the last few days, I have started to work on some technical improvements that are perfectly in-line with this advice. Thanks!

It's that feeling of carving the actual ball that is the "connection" I"m talking about.

My stroke was somewhat more of a push, lift, and turn than a carve. The difference may not seem obvious, but to me it is. I've read about 'catching' before, but I think what I was doing was sort of like catching without actually opening the glove...kind of just bunting the ball back with the backside of the glove. Thanks again for the help.

[rosheem]

Rosheem,

I just really think you need to turn off the ball more. Encorporating the left arm stretch, (which has been discussed at length) and the feel of turning the shoulders, further than the hips. I just dont see enough differential between your shoulder line and hip line, at the top of your backswing. BTW, if you've only just started playing, you're way ahead of the curve. You obviously were/are a pretty high caliber athlete. Keep up the the good work.

P.S. Do not go more underneath with your grip. 4/4 is plenty strong enough.

Thanks!

I have always tried to improve the left-arm stretch and the turn, but it felt forced. In the last few days, I've been making some other improvements that have made the coil and left-arm stretch almost take care of themselves. Now that I've gotten a feel for it, I have a better understanding of why it would help my situation.

I agree with the grip advice, because when I went further underneath, I ended up subconsciously opening up my forearm even further and producing the same result. Some of these other changes I'm making have also started to take care of this problem as well. I look forward to shooting and posting videos of the improvements.

[10splayer]

Thanks!

I have always tried to improve the left-arm stretch and the turn, but it felt forced. In the last few days, I've been making some other improvements that have made the coil and left-arm stretch almost take care of themselves. Now that I've gotten a feel for it, I have a better understanding of why it would help my situation

.

I agree with the grip advice, because when I went further underneath, I ended up subconsciously opening up my forearm even further and producing the same result. Some of these other changes I'm making have also started to take care of this problem as well. I look forward to shooting and posting videos of the improvements.

I've actually followed some of your progress, over on another forum. I've actually worked with the fellow you correspond with on that site. I'm sure you know who I mean. Anyway, what are some of these changes you've made, if I may be so bold.

[rosheem]

I was watching real-speed video clips of Federer, Djokovic, Tsonga, Del Potro, and others on youtube. I get so caught up in the super-slow motion stuff, that it really prevents me from understanding the rhythm and flow of the stroke sometimes.

I noticed that their motions are extremely loose and fluid. Rather than fighting to restrain the racquet head and keep it back, they are actually allowing it to release into contact and it is during this release that they seem to be doing the "carving" of the ball.

I'm hesitant to say much more, because I don't really want to start any big debates over this very debated topic. Doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks is happening or should be happening... tennis is one great big experiment for me anyway. Therefore, I cannot be right or wrong...and I don't really have the right to take sides in a debate until I have fully explored the options for myself.

I will say, however, that just by loosening up my arm, I have started to develop a much better sense of the shoulders coiling beyond the hips. In my volleyball days, I was known for having an extremely loose, whip-like arm. Somewhere along the way, I got away from that in tennis. I'm just messing around with getting it back. Probably obvious, but in terms of a model pro player, Federer would be it.

I had listened to those who claim that his stroke is too complex to model, and now I have decided that I refuse to believe that until I prove it to myself.

[10splayer]

I was watching real-speed video clips of Federer, Djokovic, Tsonga, Del Potro, and others on youtube. I get so caught up in the super-slow motion stuff, that it really prevents me from understanding the rhythm and flow of the stroke sometimes.

I noticed that their motions are extremely loose and fluid. Rather than fighting to restrain the racquet head and keep it back, they are actually allowing it to release into contact and it is during this release that they seem to be doing the "carving" of the ball.

I'm hesitant to say much more, because I don't really want to start any big debates over this very debated topic. Doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks is happening or should be happening... tennis is one great big experiment for me anyway. Therefore, I cannot be right or wrong...and I don't really have the right to take sides in a debate until I have fully explored the options for myself.

I

will say, however, that just by loosening up my arm, I have started to develop a much better sense of the shoulders coiling beyond the hips

. In my volleyball days, I was known for having an extremely loose, whip-like arm. Somewhere along the way, I got away from that in tennis. I'm just messing around with getting it back. Probably obvious, but in terms of a model pro player, Federer would be it.

I had listened to those who claim that his stroke is too complex to model, and now I have decided that I refuse to believe that until I prove it to myself.

Sounds reasonable. Tension is a killer. I actually think that learning to relax is a real key in the whole coiling/uncoiling process. Anyway, best of luck!

[mntlblok]

Paths

Sorry guys, I had posted a link to a video in a reply to my own original post, but something went wrong. I see that it did not make it up here.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoqPgeHclU8&feature=channel

Go straight to the :50 second mark in the video. Right after the real-speed version, the same forehand plays again at a slower speed.

What happens is that even with this footwork pattern and apparent pulling up and across the ball, I sometimes let the racquet face roll, fall, or drop open just before contact. It's as if I am creating lag in the racquet before contact, but in doing so, losing a bit of control over the face and letting it roll open too much.

Trajectory control has become a hobby of mine and I'm always trying out theories. My theory about the trajectory of that slo-mo forehand would suggest that you could lower the trajectory of the shot (if that's what you're looking for) either by using a more closed racket face at impact (which you've said doesn't feel right to you), *or* you could not drop the racket head below your hand height (at least not as much). Take a look at Brett Hobden's "dip drive" slow motion examples in this clip: http://www.tennisresources.com/index...v=1&vidid=2072
It sure looks to me like the racket head drops very little below the ball (or hand) height on those. I wonder if this is part of what airforce is talking about with "coming across the ball" (or something like that).

Part of my topspin shot trajectory theory is that there are two different "paths" going on that affect trajectory - the hand path and the racket head or "string bed" path, and the "up-ness" of either can be tweaked (along with the racket face (string bed) angle). "How" the racket head moves more steeply without the hand moving more steeply is stuff for the biomechanics guys. I've proven in the past that wrists and forearms are over my head.

As I've mentioned before, I'm a big fan of Chapter 4 in "Technical Tennis". I can't find it in the forum, but a few years ago I asked which was responsible for trajectory, swing path or racket face angle, and IIRC, there wasn't a definitive answer. Chapter 4 told me that it's approximately 50/50 (with a ton of other factors also having an effect).

You seem to be afflicted with the same desire to experiment that I've had. Enjoy.

Kevin