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Originally posted by uspta990770809
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Two examples of BH2.
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Of course we all want to get at the essence of the stroke. We have this beautiful thing called language. We use language to communicate. Language is a very tricky thing to use to communicate essences. But it can communicate characteristics with at least some measure of precision. And, if one is skillful one can use characteristics to point at the essence...even if indirectly.
Read the poem, "If" by Rudyard Kipling.
He uses a number diads, often negatively framed (If you can do such and such, and not do so and so...) to point at the emptyness/essence/tao that resides both everywhere and nowhere.
But there is no essence without characteristics. "Essence" is the connection one makes among charcteristics that unifies them. But those connections are not something that can be taught. Those can only be learned. So, as in many many Eastern arts, a good teacher points out characteristics that help the student make the connections, discover the essence(s).
E.g., from the Tao Teh Ching:
“In dwelling, live close to the ground. In thinking, keep to the simple. In conflict, be fair and generous. In governing, don't try to control. In work, do what you enjoy. In family life, be completely present.”
Is the Tao Teh Ching talking about characteristics. To the novice, apparently. To the Master, it's hard to distinguish one of these ideas from the other, as they are each the expression of the same essence. Isn't this quote pointing out characteristics that will emerge if one makes more and more essential connections?
Thing is, those of us without perfect tennis games are not Masters, and so, must often study characteristics in order to make the connections (learn the essence(s)).
So, please, spare us the lectures on how discussing characteristics is a waste of time. We're all looking for key characteristics that will help unlock other sources of quality (control, power, nimbleness, etc.).
"Outside-in" (from characteristics toward essence) is just as valid an approach as "inside-out" (from essence to characteristics) when teaching. And in my experience (tennis, martial arts, skiing, water skiing, etc.), doing some of each is usually helpful.Last edited by oliensis; 10-20-2009, 03:02 PM.Comment
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Moving frame by frame
your quote
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Much nicer to be able to look at your video in slow motion and frame by frame. I haven't figured out how to do that on youtube yet
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Don,
some slow motion videos on youtube allow "jumps" using
two arrows ---> and --->
I assume you know about it.
Regards,
julian mielniczuk
uspta certified pro 27873 juliantennis@comcast.net
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MALast edited by uspta146749877; 10-20-2009, 04:36 PM.Comment
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oliensis since that videos i have increased my turn where i am getting more of my back facing my opponent as i start the foward swing yet my left hand still comes off early. ill try to increase the rotation of my hips but another problem i have which you alluded to is i tend to step sideways (right foot) so my toes are pointed to the side fence. this causes me to lock my front leg and inhibits me getting down into the shot. on balls i have to go foward for when i get more heel tp toe and more 45 degree step into the ball im able to use my leg(s) more. i can see how i am more one arming the shot with what i am doing now . i beleive i understand conceptually what you say i should try to improve it.
will give you an update. p. s. great responce to nabrug
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i do get sidespin mor often than i would like to but its more from letting the ball jam me alittle and my attempt to "roll" the ball when i want to get more spin. when i focus on getting a purer topspin i do hit thru the ball more but my release point on the left hand doesnt change much.Originally posted by uspta990770809 View PostYou need to look at a shot that has the same view as that of your own stroke. Unfortunately, none of those in the slo mo library on Fed, but going to old Fed regular speed you can get some idea here
I'm not sure about the idea that it's a summation of energy, but the left side (shoulder, ear, head and thus the eyes) all become very stable just before the ball is struck. What I see in your stroke is a common problem. You are dragging the racket head to the ball and then your line of power as you hit it is a little across. I imagine you tend to get quite a bit of sidespin as well as topsin on your backhand. To see this well, you really need a view from the front or the rear as in this clip (Federer 2.0 High Speed BH Center Front1):
Turning your hips as Oliensis suggests may make it a little easier to correct, but IMO this is at the root of the problem. You are hitting across the ball instead of through it.
don
PS I like Jeff's site. Much nicer to be able to look at your video in slow motion and frame by frame. I haven't figured out how to do that on youtube yet. Am I missing something? And what did he say about it?Comment
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Just a guess, again, here, but from what you're describing it sounds like you're starting to set up better (w/ more turn) but that you may not be driving off the left leg, which is part of what initiates the torque of the hips, and then the torso. If you just load more, but don't explode more, then you'll still have the same issue with the early release of the left hand. But if you load, and the EXPLODE (push off the legs, drive through the hips, and so on), then I suspect the left shoulder will be forced to begin moving forward as the forward stroke begins, and then the release of the left hand will be part of a "solidifying" of the left side of the body and a counter-rotation that will keep the racquet head moving forward rather than across/inside the ball. And it will start to happen more at the "right (efficient) time.
An image that's helpful to me is imagining that the backhand begins in my left foot from a loaded leg.
Something Federer often does when he pushes off that left leg is push forward on it, but NOT have it rotate around (not follow the racquet head). Rather his left leg stays on the right/deuce-court side of his body and moves forward (toward the net) as he's hitting the ball. That keeps his hips from opening up too soon, but helps maintain a driving sensation off the left leg.
Hope that is at least a little bit constructive.
(BTW, thanks for the kind words about the resposne to Narburg.)
Originally posted by llll View Postoliensis since that videos i have increased my turn where i am getting more of my back facing my opponent as i start the foward swing yet my left hand still comes off early. ill try to increase the rotation of my hips but another problem i have which you alluded to is i tend to step sideways (right foot) so my toes are pointed to the side fence. this causes me to lock my front leg and inhibits me getting down into the shot. on balls i have to go foward for when i get more heel tp toe and more 45 degree step into the ball im able to use my leg(s) more. i can see how i am more one arming the shot with what i am doing now . i beleive i understand conceptually what you say i should try to improve it. will give you an update. p. s. great responce to nabrugComment
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Check the early response you got from oliensis:Originally posted by llll View Post
"My take on it is this:
The left hand stays on the throat of the racquet during the 1HBH as long as the whole body and both shoulders are rotating/torquing into the the ball. The left hand releases at the point at which the left shoulder (for a righty) stops rotating into the ball. That's about at the point at which the path of the racquet head moves from "angular" (in a circle) into a straighter/linear path, so that it can hit through the ball and extend toward the target. (It's a counter-rotation that allows the racquet head to accelerate into the ball.)"
The key point is that the racket head should swing up through the ball towards the target in almost a straight line. The left hand usually comes off before that forward movement starts, but not until after the downward movement is almost complete. In your case (seen clearly in your side view), the racket head generates momentum downward as it goes forward to its lowest point. Take a good look at sideviews of almost any great backhand. When the racket is accelerating forward to the ball, the racket has completed it's downward motion and that's when the left hand releases.
Second point: if you are getting jammed (too late to move your feet anymore), just meet the ball further in front and make the sweep of the stroke closer to the line of your shoulders.
donComment
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don i think i am accelerating foward to the ball. dont all loop swings generate momentum as they go down and up?Originally posted by uspta990770809 View PostComment
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Down, then forward
Take a good look at some of the clips on the site. Imagine the vector of momentum of the racket head at any given point in the stroke. In the pro strokes, the downward movement is completed before the racket starts to accelerate forward. In your stroke, the racket is going down and forward at the same time before you start to redirect the stroke upwards. So you get a kind of a scoop instead of a long sweep through the ball to the target. The lift on the ball should come from the upward momentum of the racket, not the open face. Because you have to overcome that downward momentum, you have a hard time driving through the ball and end up pulling the head across (a little bit, but enough) and the face of the racket can't get squared up to allow you to nail the shot.Originally posted by llll View Post
for example:
donComment
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Or you could look here
Also
Gonzales:
Gasquet:
Phillipousis:
but Flipper never had that great a backhand and he has a little bit of your "scoop" as I call it.
Dent:
never really known for his groundstrokes but I like this one and loved the way he played this year at the Open.
There are a lot more. See if you can see what I am talking about.
donComment
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don please be patient with me . i looked at the video links you posted and watched my video again. what i see is the pros are farther back (more shouder rotation) and seem to almost pause for a split second before they start the downswing where i am starting more foward i start moving back and then go down and up so ia m gaining momentum and accelation as i go. the pros start farther bak so they dont have much move ment backwards before they go down and up but thier swing looks like they also are gaing momemtum as they go down and are accelerating the whole time. sort of like a roller coaster starting high gaining momentum except when they get to the bottom instead of gravity slowing them down the have a turbo to keep accelerating. my turbo at the bottom doesnt seem as powerful so the difference in speed going down and up is not as pronounced although i do think im accelating . i could be wrong. the difference in the turbo or ablilty to generate racquet head speed is also why my serve is 75 mph and theirs is 120-130 mph.(lots of other reasons but will save that discussion for another day. btw it was interesting for what its worth that dent also lets go with the left hand early for a pro. what do you think?Last edited by llll; 10-22-2009, 03:33 AM.Comment
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Well, I must just have too much time on my hands, ... or I just don't want to do the work I should be doing...but I like the exchange. Hope someone else pipes up.
Take a look at oliensis's two clips from post #13
Larry:
federer:
count back 7 frames from your contact point. It takes 4 frames for you to reach the bottom of the racket heads path. Now go back 7 frames with Fed and you will see he is going up and forward for more frames (even though his racket head speed is probably greater). Now frame rate may be different for these two clips, I don't know, but you can look at it from the point of view of actual positions of the hand vs. position of the racket head. This is awfully hard to do without being able to grab your arm and racket and show you what I mean. But it is an interesting challenge.
As for Dent's left hand, I am not an advocate of the left hand moving forward. However, many top players obviously do make this move. I prefer that the left hand and left shoulder do not move forward at all. I love the move Dent puts on the ball here. I find that usually when players start that left shoulder turning forward, they do not stop it in time and end up hitting outside/in across the ball. If fact, I go so far as to tie a rope or rubber tubing to the players left hand and pull it back as they hit the ball to keep the shoulders stable and sideways (advantage of working with my ball machines). The other long time trick is to stick the left hand behind the back into the right front pocket (yes, that is a reach). Remember, this is only a drill. Basically, I think the energy generated by that early turn of the left shoulder is usually misdirected. Try to find some pictures of Petr Korda on youtube. Remember his Grand Slam Cup match against Stich. Boy, there were two beautiful backhands.
The other trick I use with my students is to use the weighted racket (check my article:
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...cket_head.html)
See if you can hit your backhand with a similarly weighted racket while barely holding the grip. The only way you can do it is by directing the momentum of the head to the target. IMO, a player needs to be able to do this effectively before they start working for more spin with wiper like actions.
good luck with it,
donComment
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