Video of My Serve - Question on Low Toss

[rosheem]

Is anything you can do to "help" to see a ball?

Sorry, nothing I can do.

[uspta146749877]

You may get suprized

A next stage is to borrow a speed gun to see whether your lower toss
serve is quicker than your previous higher toss serve.

[airforce1]

just hit like the guy at 00:24 secs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmo2Xd3PVs

[rosheem]

Not at my desk now and can't see that video on iPhone. Will check it out soon. Also have fresh clips with side view to post. Worked with a pro on tossing and landing further into court with great results.

[uspta146749877]

Northern or southern hemisphere?

Could u provide some clues about your location?

[rosheem]

About Me

Chicago, IL.

35 years old.

Been playing tennis for two years.

Former college volleyball player and coach, where I specialized in strength & conditioning.

I play tennis about 10 hours/week; a mix of drills, doubles, singles, and matches. I play 8.0 mixed doubles and 4.0 men's singles/doubles. I also hit serves by myself once or twice a week for an hour.

My goal is to see how good I can get at this sport. There were a lot of 4.0-level guys who wouldn't give me the time of day when I first started playing. Right now, I'm working my way through surpassing that group of guys and hope to get on some 4.5 teams next year.

I've taken a handful of private lessons over the past two years, but I learned my strokes from the videos and articles here and on two of the other sites. I have devoured an enormous amount of information over the past two years...internet, books, DVDs, etc. For every hour I've spent playing, I've probably spent one or two just shadowing my strokes, hitting balls against a wall, hitting off a machine, or even just drop-feeding balls to myself.

I've been lurking on this forum for about a year and appreciate all of your input...I consider everyone here part of my coaching team!

[rosheem]

Experimental Forward Toss

Below are clips in real speed and slow motion of some serving practice I was doing. I was playing around with moving my toss further into the court.

Since then, I've reviewed a bunch of the pro clips and notice that there are many variations of where players land after serving. There is even more variation on HOW they get to that landing point. For example:

Djokovic and Kohlschreiber: Land almost two feet inside baseline, but make contact relatively far back (contact ball almost on top of head, definitely not way out in front). Momentum does not take them beyond the front foot and they end up recovering backwards quite easily.

Sampras: Lands maybe a foot or so inside baseline with momentum taking him forward (obviously good for serve and volley). Contact point further out beyond front edge of body.

Federer: Variable landing...sometimes part of foot lands on baseline, sometimes he lands a foot inside. More vertical upper body at contact with well-balanced recovery and contact point about even with face.

Hard to tell from my initial videos, which were shot from behind, but I was tossing too far behind me and sometimes having to wrestle the ball and pull it from behind me. These videos are the opposite to the extreme and I will have to play around with some variations, but I certainly got a new feel for things that will help improve my serve.

I don't like the initial leg bend, by the way. It looks nothing like what the pros do. It looks like I'm trying to sit down on a chair. I'll work on that.

Forward toss Slow-Mo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3fLzDxXPGk
Real Speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVVO8J7Wh3o

And finally, the pro wanted to look at my swing angle from behind to compare a serve down the middle and one out wide. It's a good look at the contact point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4AR24nnaGM

[uspta146749877]

Vertical vs Horizontal

Below are clips in real speed and slow motion of some serving practice I was doing. I was playing around with moving my toss further into the court.

Since then, I've reviewed a bunch of the pro clips and notice that there are many variations of where players land after serving. There is even more variation on HOW they get to that landing point. For example:

Djokovic and Kohlschreiber: Land almost two feet inside baseline, but make contact relatively far back (contact ball almost on top of head, definitely not way out in front). Momentum does not take them beyond the front foot and they end up recovering backwards quite easily.

Sampras: Lands maybe a foot or so inside baseline with momentum taking him forward (obviously good for serve and volley). Contact point further out beyond front edge of body.

Federer: Variable landing...sometimes part of foot lands on baseline, sometimes he lands a foot inside. More vertical upper body at contact with well-balanced recovery and contact point about even with face.

Hard to tell from my initial videos, which were shot from behind, but I was tossing too far behind me and sometimes having to wrestle the ball and pull it from behind me. These videos are the opposite to the extreme and I will have to play around with some variations, but I certainly got a new feel for things that will help improve my serve.

I don't like the initial leg bend, by the way. It looks nothing like what the pros do. It looks like I'm trying to sit down on a chair. I'll work on that.

Forward toss Slow-Mo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3fLzDxXPGk
Real Speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVVO8J7Wh3o

And finally, the pro wanted to look at my swing angle from behind to compare a serve down the middle and one out wide. It's a good look at the contact point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4AR24nnaGM

if you do serve and volley follow Sampras.
Otherwise follow Federer.
This remark will define your toss as well

julian mielniczuk
uspta certified pro 27873 juliantennis@comcast.net

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

[airforce1]

Noticed...

Really good stuff going on here over all. I agree that your toss was a little too far in these, but not bad. but noticed something new-

from the rear vid, I could see that you could possibly benefit from a better shoulder over shoulder, cartwheeling motion. (maybe someone already mentioned this, not sure) Yours is not really bad, but I think there is room for improvement that could make a big diff.
Make sure the neck tilts over to give some rotator cuff room to flow. Right now your head is very upright and stops your shoulder over shoulder IMO.
what do you think?

PS. launch angle for leg drive should only be about 9-10 degrees. JY has more exact numbers if he will remind us. yours seems to be more like 15-17 just guessing with this toss.

[rosheem]

Thanks for the input.

Airforce- I picked up on the lack of left launch action as well. Cartwheel looks ok from side but you can pick up on it better from that rear view.

Honestly didn't think to prioritize that improvement but if you believe it will make a big difference, I will give it a go. In fact, as I improve the initial knee bend so my torso is more aligned with legs and there is more of a backwards lean (not back arch), I think the left launch improvement will also come.

Good stuff from you guys as always.

[airforce1]

yes, major

yes, I believe that shoulder over shoulder cam effect is what drives the movement of the 2 arm segments. It may be related to your "slight" drop into contact, as that may be a subtle compensation for not driving that back shoulder up over the top.

also, back on original point of toss height, looked slightly high in slo mo and may be picking up too much speed dropping for you to catch it just right, but it could also be aggravated by the toss too far in front as well.

[uspta146749877]

The "Cartwheel" and Shoulder Motion

Couple important references:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/brian_gordon/upward_swing_part_1/upward_swing_part_1.html

Please see the paragraph entitled
The "Cartwheel" and Shoulder Motion

See as well the table below from

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/brian_gordon/serve_tennis_science%20_brian_gordon/serve_tennis_science%20_brian_gordon.html

Contributions to Racquet Head Speed Prior to Contact
Elbow Extension 35%
Wrist Flexion 24%
Upper Arm Twist (internal rotation) 17%
Trunk Twist 10%

(-3% hips)

(13% shoulders)

Forearm Pronation 5%



julian mielniczuk
uspta certified pro 27873 juliantennis@comcast.net

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

[airforce1]

Couple important references:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/brian_gordon/upward_swing_part_1/upward_swing_part_1.html

Please see the paragraph entitled
The "Cartwheel" and Shoulder Motion


A

from above-

That is a huge difference and therefore a major problem. My coaching experience shows that until this problem is resolved, players can not make further substantive improvement in the serve. But to resolve the problem, you must understand whether the deficiency in the momentum transfer is the transfer into the trunk (cartwheel), or into the arm (shoulder abduction), or both.

[rosheem]

Long Post

Great stuff, guys. I love the Brian Gordon series. Revisiting the section that you've referenced comes at a perfect time right now.

I just played for two hours and experimented with increasing my lateral trunk tilt while still keeping the contact point more forward into the court. I must say that altering so many variables in the serve motion in the setting of competitive match play requires extreme focus and concentration. I enjoy the challenge.

(Side note...I played about a set and a half of doubles with a strong 4.0 player against a very strong 4.0 player and a 4.5 player. We won the first set 6-0. I held serve with ease, although I was hitting my fair share of second serves because I was playing around with things so much)

Anyway, after re-reading the Gordon article, here's a piece that really caught my attention:

"The bottom line is that the lateral trunk tilt dictates the organization of the joint rotations in creating racquet speed. Excessive trunk tilt, may help with the contribution of one segment--upper trunk twist rotation--but this is at the expense of other critical contributors around the contact--internal shoulder rotation and, to a lesser extent, forearm pronation"

The key part for me there is the "...to a lesser extent, forearm pronation..."

Here were my observations: I could definitely feel a sensation of freeing my shoulder to really release into contact by increasing my trunk tilt. The challenge was coordinating the timing of using more cartwheel in the motion. Because there is so much power available in that cartwheel, I must learn how to manage it. I was probably pulling the trigger a bit too early with that motion, which definitely contributed to some loss of control.

For me, the key to control is the ability to delay the untwisting of the arm (continue to build torque in the arm during the upward swing so that pronation can happen in a very concentrated way...enabling that racquet to really flip over quickly through contact like you see with Sampras and Federer) When you start to speed up other segments of the motion too quickly or too early, there is a risk of the arm untwisting too early, which results in a loss of control.

To put it simply, tonight I kept reminding myself to be rhythmic and fluid and slowly build up my acceleration into contact. When I was able to pair this with improvements in launch angle, I was able to hit very heavy serves and maintain a great deal of control. I am noticing that when the body starts to get sequenced and aligned correctly, even more attention can be devoted to the fine-tuning of spin and location because power takes care of itself.

An added benefit in doubles was that this motion puts me in better position to hit an aggressive first volley as well. The serve quality generates a weak reply, and there I am to blast an overhead or put away a high-volley.

Still much to work on. In retrospect, I think that I've learned things in the correct sequence, though. I devoted most of my time so far to understanding and learning the proper arm action. This has given me a great sense of feel and control on the serve, which allows me to play around with my first serve because I know I can control my second. Now the goal is to really improve things earlier in the motion...improve my toss, the timing of my leg drive, the trunk tilt, etc.

This would all be WAY easier if I could be immersed in an environment with a bunch of very high-level tennis players who were all doing it right. For me, it is just so much easier to learn by emulating someone in real space and time. Of course, progress comes much faster with live feedback and quality coaching as well. I have to do it the slow way, but I think I'm at least doing it as best I can.

[airforce1]

Great stuff, guys. I love the Brian Gordon series. Revisiting the section that you've referenced comes at a perfect time right now.

Here were my observations: I could definitely feel a sensation of freeing my shoulder to really release into contact by increasing my trunk tilt. The challenge was coordinating the timing of using more cartwheel in the motion. Because there is so much power available in that cartwheel, I must learn how to manage it. I was probably pulling the trigger a bit too early with that motion, which definitely contributed to some loss of control.

For me, the key to control is the ability to delay the untwisting of the arm (continue to build torque in the arm during the upward swing so that pronation can happen in a very concentrated way...enabling that racquet to really flip over quickly through contact like you see with Sampras and Federer) When you start to speed up other segments of the motion too quickly or too early, there is a risk of the arm untwisting too early, which results in a loss of control.

To put it simply, tonight I kept reminding myself to be rhythmic and fluid and slowly build up my acceleration into contact. When I was able to pair this with improvements in launch angle, I was able to hit very heavy serves and maintain a great deal of control. I am noticing that when the body starts to get sequenced and aligned correctly, even more attention can be devoted to the fine-tuning of spin and location because power takes care of itself.

I have to do it the slow way, but I think I'm at least doing it as best I can.

Really excellent post!
shows a lot of understanding for what you are working on.
Articles like the one referenced written by Brian B. are so valuable.

Above I think you are referring to what I call delayed extension of the elbow, if i understood correctly. Noticed that was firing a little early in the vid, but didn't want to put too much on you at one time or to let you lose sight of how well you were doing in spite of the suggestions.
Very cool to see you find it yourself, while starting to realize the power of the shoulder over shoulder along adjustment of launch angle for consistency!