Video of My Serve - Question on Low Toss

[rosheem]

I've been playing around with lowering my toss a bit.

I find that I often feel like my leg drive is early and I end up really reaching for the ball. With the lower toss, the power seems to flow a bit better.

However, I find it hard to get full stretch and extension of the tossing arm with such a low toss.

To me, it doesn't seem to be a problem, but everything I've learned and read indicates that this full stretch of the tossing arm is important. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Additionally, I'm wondering if someone can identify what is causing me to end up falling towards my left after landing.

I'll post a link below the the same serve in regular speed and slow motion.

Thanks!!

Regular speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mBiEdH51VI

Slow motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9LvLEq2JFw

[airforce1]

Really some nice looking things on your serve, and it seems to have good pace.

My initial concern would be that instead of driving up into the contact, you seem to have crested, and just started to descend at contact.
Would you agree?
This is related to toss height to some extent, but factored in with several other timing issues.

[rosheem]

Yes, I would agree. You make a great point. (By the way...I've been a member here for a while and have learned a lot from your posts.)

This is exactly why I decided to post here and ask for some opinions. You gave me an idea that I hadn't thought of.

I think I need to decouple the timing of my initial leg bend and toss in the very early stages of my motion. Lowering my toss was really a band-aid to remedy the problem of hitting the ball on the way down or after I've "crested" as you put it.

The one thing that didn't change when I lowered my toss was the initial timing of the toss and leg bend.

I will go back and study some video of how the pros coordinate the toss with the initial knee bend. I would rather delay the initiation of the knee bend than wait longer in the bent position so that I don't let any power bleed from that position if you know what I'm saying. (It's like a max vertical jump...you want to maximize the stretch-reflex power in the legs.)

Shouldn't be hard to do. I'll groove it and post some updated videos.

Some quick background - I first picked up a racquet exactly two years ago and built this serve from scratch using nothing but the instruction I learned from this site and two others. My focus has been on developing the correct arm action, which really took almost a year to figure out. Now I'm trying to integrate that into the rest of the motion.

I have some clips of a few other variations of my serve: a kicker and a hybrid kick/first serve...but this timing issue is actually common to all of my variations so let's tackle this one first.

Thanks again for taking the time to check out the videos.

[tcuk]

I agree with airforce. Keep the left arm up longer would be my advice, so you can't elevate upwards better.

[uspta146749877]

Was a serve in?

Just to satisfy my curiosity:
was your serve IN A SLOW MOTION video in?
What is a location of a contact point-
is it 12 pm or 11 am ?

julian mielniczuk
uspta certified pro 27873 juliantennis@comcast.net

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

[rosheem]

Julian,

If I'm understanding your question correctly, you were asking if the serve landed IN? I'm pretty sure...I have a little system where I make a signal to the camera when I think a serve is worth taking another look at when I review the tape. I don't make a signal if the serve lands out. It's hard to tell on the video and of course I don't remember, so I can't say 100% though. These big serves usually land really close to the baseline.

As far as the contact point...I would guess 12:00 judging from the arm and racquet angle. That's what I was trying for. If anything, when my contact point is not where I want it to be, it's too far to the right.

[rosheem]

Kicker and Hybrid Kicker

Here are two other serves that I use. The kicker is...well, a kick serve.

The hybrid kick serve is the one I generally use in doubles matches for my first serve.

This serve has more net clearance than my power serve, lands shorter in the box, and has a slight kick to the receivers left. Compared to a regular kick serve, it has more pace and not as much arc. It's hard to see in the video because I am blocking the view of the receiver, but if you look closely you can see that he gets crossed up and ends up just jumping out of the way. (He is a beginner and was just standing in to practice his returns).

I would like to be doing a better job of making contact on these serves before the peak of my elevation, just like on the previous serve we discussed. Would love to hear any other tips or feedback. I'll post them in regular and slow-motion. Thanks!

Hybrid Kicker Regular Speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ0Im5g5ijo
Hybrid Kicker Slow Motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCdUv6fk4w

Kick Serve Slow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg643o4SbIA
Kick Serve Real Speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq-LaF_-C18

[uspta146749877]

Location of a contact point

Julian,

If I'm understanding your question correctly, you were asking if the serve landed IN? I'm pretty sure...I have a little system where I make a signal to the camera when I think a serve is worth taking another look at when I review the tape. I don't make a signal if the serve lands out. It's hard to tell on the video and of course I don't remember, so I can't say 100% though. These big serves usually land really close to the baseline.

As far as the contact point...I would guess 12:00 judging from the arm and racquet angle. That's what I was trying for. If anything, when my contact point is not where I want it to be, it's too far to the right.

Hi,
couple loose remarks about your contact point:
1.please compare your serve
with

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSAdCourtLevelRear1.mov

I will post more on this subject 6 hours later.

2.My first reaction is that for
the first video tape slow motion a contact point for HIGH PERFORMANCE SERVE
should be a bit MORE to your LEFT.
I assume that you have read about a rainbow toss at tennisplayer.net
See

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/federer_serve/federer_serve_part2/federer_serve_part2.html

a subchapter entitled "the arc" and a video of Federer in this subchapter

3.superposing of pictures-please read as well

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1195

post #8 about superposing.
a quote
------>
BTW, it's amazing what Quicktime Pro can actually do. I've learn to superimpose one player over another, and to set up two clips playing side-by-side in one window. Quicktime Pro can do all that other softwares can do for a fraction of the cost. It's a gem for coaches at just 30 dollars.
----> the end of the quote

4.Probably a left arm folding can be done more efficiently

5.Is it possible to move a camera exactly perpendicularly to a court?
I expect an answer is "no"

6.Another idea is to serve "against" a camera-
such a video would allow me to see whether you have a rainbow toss.
Another way of saying : I would like to see "a front" view

julian mielniczuk
uspta certified pro 27873 juliantennis@comcast.net

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

[airforce1]

Julian,
These big serves usually land really close to the baseline.

you mean svc line right?

just to be clear, I'm not saying you should be elevated at the start of the upward swing towards contact. Seems to be a fine line on the jumping/elevation aspect. IMO, mostly upward swing to contact should be right at, or just after the feet lose ground contact (assuming your push is strong enough to leave the ground.)
Actual contact is usually just prior to full elevation.

I way of feeling this is to NOT push hard enough to lift off, then you can get a sense of legs pushing the racket into the ball (sort of). This could be a way to work on your timing, then progressively push harder with the legs, but keeping that sense of pushing right up into the ball. This sometimes helps with feeling it.

[rosheem]

you mean svc line right?

Of course ...sorry for the misprint.

(If my serves were landing at the baseline, I'd really be in trouble!)

I will try your suggestion. I know exactly what you are talking about and that seems like a good idea to get a better feel for the timing.

[rosheem]

Julian - regarding some of your points:

I put the camera at that angle to get some extra distance because otherwise it was difficult to fit the entire motion from feet to contact in the frame.

I am familiar with how the toss should arc, and this is definitely something I am working to improve. I think it may go hand-in-hand with improving the stretch and hold of the tossing arm, so I hope to improve both of these simultaneously.

I bought QuickTime Pro, but haven't done the superimposing yet. I will try it.

I will also try some different camera angles. In addition to your suggestion on the straight-on view, I may also try to get a side view. I think I can move my toss forward a bit more. The pro players end up with the torso angled forward into the court, which I think also goes along with more of a leg kick backwards.

Many things to work on...some of them are extremely obvious, but there are some little things that you guys pick up on that I might not see. I appreciate the feedback.

[airforce1]

Of course ...sorry for the misprint.

(If my serves were landing at the baseline, I'd really be in trouble!)

I will try your suggestion. I know exactly what you are talking about and that seems like a good idea to get a better feel for the timing.

I really wasn't trying to be a smarty, but really just making sure of what you were saying. You know what happens if you assume too much. I've still do that too often.

[uspta146749877]

It is very difficult to see a ball at a contact point

Hi,
I would like to address an issue of quality of one of your videos

For Hybrid Kicker Slow Motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCdUv6fk4w
it is second to impossible to see a ball around contact point
because of bright lights.
Is anything you can do to "help" to see a ball?

julian mielniczuk
uspta certified pro 27873 juliantennis@comcast.net

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

[airforce1]

edited and corrected terminology related to upward swing to contact in that post about timing of leg drive near the bottom of page 1.
before I was speaking of how it feels to me, but realized as the leg push drove the upward swing to contact, that the body lifted along with the racket up to contact to near the top of the lifting.

[uspta146749877]

Related thread

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1429