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Juan Monaco, Double Bend, & the Kinetic Chain

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  • Juan Monaco, Double Bend, & the Kinetic Chain

    I went out to Queens today and watched some Qualies as well as some practice sessions. Saw Scoville Jenkins playing McClure (both American), sawa Swiss guy named Michael Lammer or Lamner(?) playing Inigo Cervantes (ESP). That looked like the best quality tennis among the Qualies.

    Saw a bunch of women playing who I didn't recognize.

    Watched Haas & Lapenti play a practice set. Haas lost the tiebreaker, and sent 2 balls out of the grandstand stadium. Later, saw Lapenti playing Fernando Gonzalez.

    Saw Del Potro hitting, and then Robredo as well.

    Saw a woman who I think was Spanish or Italian on the outer courts just lambasting her backhand (one-hander). It was a sight to behold. She was practicing w/ a new-name player. Culko? (I think I have that wrong--a long-blond-haired small woman who was on TV for the first time at Wimbledon or the French and almost upset Sharapova maybe?)

    Of all I saw, though, the most impressive thing (besides maybe the woman's one-hander) was Juan Monaco practicing. His forehand was noticably quicker through the hitting zone than anyone else's. The chain from feet to hips to shoulders, to elbow to wrist to racquet head was cleaner, faster, clearer than anyone else's. (I've seen him play before at the Open and never saw this going on before.)

    It actually alerted me to something that I'd only been cloudily considering before and that is this: the possibility that the double-bend forehand has something going on in it that is subtle and not completely obvious. (Duh!) When I watched Monaco it looked like the elbow was actually functioning as a fulcrum from which the forarm accelerated along a new, complementary arc...a sort of launch point for the acceleration of the next link the kinetic chain...and the wrist, because it is laid back, then launches the acceleration of the next link (the racquet) along a new, and once again complementary circle.

    Put slightly differently, the double bend (I speculate) may accentuate the acceleration of racquet head speed along a non-linear path. More specifically, the path of the racket head is moving both along a horizontal arc as well as along an oblique arc (low to high). The oblique arc is achieved, at least in part, as a function of the shoulder's and forarm's progression from supination to pronation. The contribution made to the vertical component of the oblique arc made by the supination/pronation progression may be accentuated by the double bend hitting structure.

    That's what I'm trying to get at. Again: The contribution made to the vertical component of the oblique arc made by the supination/pronation progression may be accentuated by the double bend hitting structure.

    I'll try to make a sketch of what I mean, for consideration. I may be all wet on this, but I suspect that there's something in here worth mining.
    Last edited by oliensis; 08-27-2009, 07:52 PM.

  • #2
    Monaco

    Originally posted by oliensis View Post
    I went out to Queens today and watched some Qualies as well as some practice sessions. Saw Scoville Jenkins playing McClure (both American), sawa Swiss guy named Michael Lammer or Lamner(?) playing Inigo Cervantes (ESP). That looked like the best quality tennis among the Qualies.

    Saw a bunch of women playing who I didn't recognize.

    Watched Haas & Lapenti play a practice set. Haas lost the tiebreaker, and sent 2 balls out of the grandstand stadium. Later, saw Lapenti playing Fernando Gonzalez.

    Saw Del Potro hitting, and then Robredo as well.

    Saw a woman who I think was Spanish or Italian on the outer courts just lambasting her backhand (one-hander). It was a sight to behold. She was practicing w/ a new-name player. Culko? (I think I have that wrong--a long-blond-haired small woman who was on TV for the first time at Wimbledon or the French and almost upset Sharapova maybe?)

    Of all I saw, though, the most impressive thing (besides maybe the woman's one-hander) was Juan Monaco practicing. His forehand was noticably quicker through the hitting zone than anyone else's. The chain from feet to hips to shoulders, to elbow to wrist to racquet head was cleaner, faster, clearer than anyone else's. (I've seen him play before at the Open and never saw this going on before.)

    It actually alerted me to something that I'd only been cloudily considering before and that is this: the possibility that the double-bend forehand has something going on in it that is subtle and not completely obvious. (Duh!) When I watched Monaco it looked like the elbow was actually functioning as a fulcrum from which the forarm accelerated along a new, complementary arc...a sort of launch point for the acceleration of the next link the kinetic chain...and the wrist, because it is laid back, then launches the acceleration of the next link (the racquet) along a new, and once again complementary circle.

    Put slightly differently, the double bend (I speculate) may accentuate the acceleration of racquet head speed along a non-linear path. More specifically, the path of the racket head is moving both along a horizontal arc as well as along an oblique arc (low to high). The oblique arc is achieved, at least in part, as a function of the shoulder's and forarm's progression from supination to pronation. The contribution made to the vertical component of the oblique arc made by the supination/pronation progression may be accentuated by the double bend hitting structure.

    That's what I'm trying to get at. Again: The contribution made to the vertical component of the oblique arc made by the supination/pronation progression may be accentuated by the double bend hitting structure.

    I'll try to make a sketch of what I mean, for consideration. I may be all wet on this, but I suspect that there's something in here worth mining.
    Probably the best idea is to ask John to videotape Monaco.
    It could be an interesting contribution to a discussion
    straight arm forehand vs double bend ( see other recent threads)

    julian mielniczuk
    usptapro 27873
    Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

    juliantennis@comcast.net
    Last edited by uspta146749877; 08-28-2009, 06:39 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Dulko

      Originally posted by oliensis View Post
      I went out to Queens today and watched some Qualies as well as some practice sessions. Saw Scoville Jenkins playing McClure (both American), sawa Swiss guy named Michael Lammer or Lamner(?) playing Inigo Cervantes (ESP). That looked like the best quality tennis among the Qualies.

      Saw a bunch of women playing who I didn't recognize.

      Watched Haas & Lapenti play a practice set. Haas lost the tiebreaker, and sent 2 balls out of the grandstand stadium. Later, saw Lapenti playing Fernando Gonzalez.

      Saw Del Potro hitting, and then Robredo as well.

      Saw a woman who I think was Spanish or Italian on the outer courts just lambasting her backhand (one-hander). It was a sight to behold. She was practicing w/ a new-name player. Culko? (I think I have that wrong--a long-blond-haired small woman who was on TV for the first time at Wimbledon or the French and almost upset Sharapova maybe?)

      Of all I saw, though, the most impressive thing (besides maybe the woman's one-hander) was Juan Monaco practicing. His forehand was noticably quicker through the hitting zone than anyone else's. The chain from feet to hips to shoulders, to elbow to wrist to racquet head was cleaner, faster, clearer than anyone else's. (I've seen him play before at the Open and never saw this going on before.)

      It actually alerted me to something that I'd only been cloudily considering before and that is this: the possibility that the double-bend forehand has something going on in it that is subtle and not completely obvious. (Duh!) When I watched Monaco it looked like the elbow was actually functioning as a fulcrum from which the forarm accelerated along a new, complementary arc...a sort of launch point for the acceleration of the next link the kinetic chain...and the wrist, because it is laid back, then launches the acceleration of the next link (the racquet) along a new, and once again complementary circle.

      Put slightly differently, the double bend (I speculate) may accentuate the acceleration of racquet head speed along a non-linear path. More specifically, the path of the racket head is moving both along a horizontal arc as well as along an oblique arc (low to high). The oblique arc is achieved, at least in part, as a function of the shoulder's and forarm's progression from supination to pronation. The contribution made to the vertical component of the oblique arc made by the supination/pronation progression may be accentuated by the double bend hitting structure.

      That's what I'm trying to get at. Again: The contribution made to the vertical component of the oblique arc made by the supination/pronation progression may be accentuated by the double bend hitting structure.

      I'll try to make a sketch of what I mean, for consideration. I may be all wet on this, but I suspect that there's something in here worth mining.
      From an online search:
      "At the 2009 Wimbledon Championships, Dulko upset #24 seeded Maria Sharapova in three sets in the second round"

      julian mielniczuk
      usptapro 27873
      Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

      juliantennis@comcast.net
      Last edited by uspta146749877; 08-28-2009, 06:40 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wozniacki

        Another interesting development is open stance backhand of Wozniacki-
        see New Haven

        julian mielniczuk
        usptapro 27873
        Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

        juliantennis@comcast.net

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks, Julian. Dulko, that's it.
          Her practice partner's backhand was just out of this world. Wish I knew her name (it wasn't Navarro).

          Regarding the subject of the thread and the double bend...anyone ever use a jackhandle like the one in the first attached image? (I hope it's attached.)

          In Edit: Here's a link to the images w/ text http://www.theagiletrader.com/amember/DoubleBend.htm

          I suspect that the double bend helps apply "low-to-high" "torque" (which creates spin) to the modern forehand.

          The thing about using a jackhandle like the one pictured is that you can play w/ which hand is the "center" of the turning radius and which is the perimeter of the circle...or you can create a more interesting situation in which the center of the turning radius is between your hands, and both hands move around that center. I suspect that the same is true with the double bend forehand, w/ regard to the elbow and shoulder.

          The 2nd attached gif has my crude sketch of what action is created from the double bend that may be analogous to what happens with a jackhandle.

          The jackhandle is a non-straight lever, which is more efficient for some uses than a straight lever. Why is it more efficient? Because it is levering a curvilinear action, applying torque.

          I hypothesize that the development of the double bend is in some way related to the fact that the path of the racket head moves in not only one horizontal-planed circle, but simultaneously in a "wave" or "torquing" action that has a vertical component, and that the double bend can be constructive for applying that torque, just as it is in jacking up a car.

          I think the same thing CAN also be done w/ a straight-arm forehand (obviously Nadal hits topspin). And jack can be raised with a different sort of jackhandle. But it's not clear to me that this is a particularly inefficient way of applying torque.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by oliensis; 08-28-2009, 08:17 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Attaching does NOT work for uspta accounts

            Originally posted by oliensis View Post
            Thanks, Julian. Dulko, that's it.
            Her practice partner's backhand was just out of this world. Wish I knew her name (it wasn't Navarro).

            Regarding the subject of the thread and the double bend...anyone ever use a jackhandle like the one in the first attached image? (I hope it's attached.) I suspect that the double bend helps apply "low-to-high" "torque" (which creates spin) to the modern forehand.

            The thing about using a jackhandle like the one pictured is that you can play w/ which hand is the "center" of the turning radius and which is the perimeter of the circle...or you can create a more interesting situation in which the center of the turning radius is between your hands, and both hands move around that center. I suspect that the same is true with the double bend forehand, w/ regard to the elbow and shoulder.

            The 2nd attached gif has my crude sketch of what action is created from the double bend that may be analogous to what happens with a jackhandle.

            The jackhandle is a non-straight lever, which is more efficient for some uses than a straight lever. Why is it more efficient? Because it is levering a curvilinear action, applying torque.

            I hypothesize that the development of the double bend is in some way related to the fact that the path of the racket head moves in not only one horizontal-planed circle, but simultaneously in a "wave" or "torquing" action that has a vertical component, and that the double bend can be constructive for applying that torque, just as it is in jacking up a car.
            I think the same thing CAN also be done w/ a straight-arm forehand (obviously Nadal hits topspin). And jack can be raised with a different sort of jackhandle. But it's not clear to me that this is a particularly inefficient way of applying torque.
            Dear Mr Oliensis,
            attaching files the way you do it does NOT allow USPA accounts to see it.
            I have the same problems with files attached by jperedo and other users.
            The only way to go around it is either post it on youtube
            or to send via E-mail to me ( an E-mail provided below).
            The message generated after clicking a mouse at YOUR FILE name is quoted below:

            The message is
            uspta146749877, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

            1.Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
            2.If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


            John,do u know a reason?

            julian mielniczuk
            juliantennis@comcast.net
            Last edited by uspta146749877; 08-28-2009, 08:11 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Here's a link for those who can't access attached files...also added to my post above:

              Comment


              • #8
                Very difficult

                Originally posted by oliensis View Post
                Here's a link for those who can't access attached files...also added to my post above:

                http://www.theagiletrader.com/amember/DoubleBend.htm
                You should bring somehow Jeff Counts into this conversation.
                Please see

                Your quote:
                "both hands move around center".
                Could you make one little extra drawing for this situation?
                I do NOT mean 2 be a pain

                julian mielniczuk
                usptapro 27873
                Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,NA

                juliantennis@comcast.net
                Last edited by uspta146749877; 08-29-2009, 07:30 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Very interesting. I am going to have to read your description more closely but it seems to me like you are on to something. I attached a sequence I took of Juan Monaco two years ago. Notice how the double bend remains intact from contact to the next frame. The entire double bend is pushing forward and lifting straight upward. I personally refer to this as a "leveraged lift" of the ball and Juan Monaco is a perfect example of this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've updated the link to include pictures as per the request regarding how "both hands" can go "around an invisible axis" when jacking up a car:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jeff, yeah that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about!

                      An Indian martial art that I used to practice used a weapon called an "Otta" which had in it precisely the "double bend."

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otta_(weapon)

                      There's a picture of the weapon alogn the left margin of this link:


                      And, holy moly...I just found an-almost-30-yr old picture of me practicing this martial art w/ my teacher: (2nd picture on right...using sword & shield. I"m the one in the dark warmups w/ white stripe...this is from my professor's Website, just found while googling the name of the weapon)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You should ask Brian Gordon to evaluate

                        Originally posted by oliensis View Post
                        Jeff, yeah that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about!

                        An Indian martial art that I used to practice used a weapon called an "Otta" which had in it precisely the "double bend."

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otta_(weapon)

                        There's a picture of the weapon alogn the left margin of this link:


                        And, holy moly...I just found an-almost-30-yr old picture of me practicing this martial art w/ my teacher: (2nd picture on right...using sword & shield. I"m the one in the dark warmups w/ white stripe...this is from my professor's Website, just found while googling the name of the weapon)

                        http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1
                        You should ask Brian Gordon to evaluate your mechanical ideas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Gulbis

                          You guys investigating the "bends." Check out Ernest Gulbis. He generates enormous racket head speed with this method I think you are describing.

                          But...you knew there was a 'but', why can't any of these guys produce it under all pressure situations. Don't ALL of the guys hitting with this fail to produce it through 2 to 3 sets of tight competition? Are they getting "tight" mentally? I've been seeing a pattern of Tsonga's and Gulbis' and even Murray and Djokovic having their forehands fall apart...even on simple mid court balls...which by the way would support my theory that as the ball gets inside on them and they aren't stretched on the run to it they let it get in too close and bam...all bets are off because the physics required to pull it off always in all situations is just too difficult.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm no big fan of Gulbis' forehand, technically. One of the problems is that he does not get a pivot/closing action from the elbow. James Blake is much closer to Jeff Count's "leveraged lift" or what I've called a "torquing" action like a jack-handle.
                            Blake: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelSide3.mov

                            Federer (extended often) has a history of his forehand falling apart viciously at times. He just completely loses his timing/contact zone.

                            Verdasco hits a straight-arm forehand. I guess he never falls apart, eh? (Not!)

                            The name Borg ring a bell? (Bent arm.) Did he fall apart? Saw it happen one time. I think it was against Brian Gottfried (sp?) in a minor tournament. But don't remember him brain-cramping under pressure.

                            Agassi did get tight at times (remember the 4-setter at night at the US Open against Sampras? S won 6-7, 7-6, 7-6, 7-6, or something close to that. And Agassi's forehand got just a wee bit tight in the tiebreakers, and he hit the net-cord a few times when he had an open court...hit a loser instead of a winner. But I don't recall Sampras' forehand ever being a liability under pressure.)

                            How about Wayne Farreira (sp?)? He hit a straight-arm forehand. Gave Sampras trouble, but not otherwise a known clutch player. For some reason I just loathed watching him play. Saw him at the Open a couple times and he hit about 2/3 of his shots completely uncleanly. And then there was a giant Swede, I think it was Magnus Larsson, who hit straight-arm on the starboard wing. Mr. Clutch? Not hardly.

                            Anecdotally, you can find straight-arm players who are clutch. But you can find double-bend forehands that are clutch (how about Lendl?) and and straight-arm chokers too. (How about Federer in the Spring hard-court season? Ever seen Grossjean's forehand go off like that? Or Roddick's? Or Lendl? Or Agassi? Or Sampras? I never did. Granted, that was a movement issue. But Agassi on a good day had more movement issues than Federer in a hip cast. So, maybe the thing of it is that the extended-arm forehand causes movement to be MORE difficult...and timing to be MORE difficult...which I actually think is the case.

                            Now, if you're predicating your technique breakthrough on setting up to the ball better, well DUHHHHH! Setting up for the ball better makes you a better player! If the game is 90% mental, in my view, 80% of that 90% is footwork...so if you do the math, 90% * 80% = 72%. So, the game is 72% footwork!

                            Is that the breakthrough? Hell, H.L. Daugherty could've told you that 110 years ago!
                            Last edited by oliensis; 08-29-2009, 12:28 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mr. O...do you need to take a chill pill? One thing I've saying for weeks is that a bent arm has so many ever changing variables. An arm that extends to straight has no such varying degrees of bent to have to perfect and therefore forces better movement.

                              Name one thing in tennis that would make every single tennis player on earth better more than better movement.

                              Chew on this...and this goes to Jeff's opinion of how hard it would be to change someone or teach someone something new...(i don't have his quote at hand) but I went out today and hit left handed forehands.

                              I've never done that. The first five minutes were blocks, the following was a series of balls looking ridiculous and some quite nice...within an hour i was blowing forehands past my 4.5 level player friend. He kept thinking I had changed back to my right hand some how.

                              What does that say...once I got the spacing right I was able to create a 5.0+ forehand in one hour! It had to be set up with proper distance to the ball. As soon as I got just a little too close I did not have the skill or arm strength to adapt and hit a ball in the court. It was so awkward because again, I am not left handed. But with proper distance and focusing on the simple aspects of an extended forehand...they were perfect. 8 passing shots off returns in a row is pretty dang perfect.

                              I'm only sharing this because it proved to ME that distance is everything and that only comes from reading/recognizing proper contact distance and body set up. I challenge all of you pros to go out and duplicate a bent arm forehand with any player or yourself in their non-dominate arm in 1 hour that is as good as their common arm. (has to be a first time experience on the non-dominate side) It cannot be done. I guarantee it!

                              Regardless of all other arguments, someone said it on here recently, the proof is in the pudding. Well, I just proved it to myself today. That's all i need. Maybe you guys just need to disbelieve cranially. I don't know.

                              Have fun and please to take my challenge and post results.

                              (I think comparison's have proven that Born and Federer hit very similar. Maybe take Borg out of your example.)

                              Comment

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