where'd the bent arm come from anyway?

[jeffreycounts]

Jeff, somehow this thread got the wrong impressions going and some added confusion as to what double bends are and straight arm FHs are. What I have always believed to be a double bend is a stroke where at contact the elbow and wrist are still rigid and often shortening, or bending more from the backswing.(see my first posts where I criticize the pulling through of the arm, no whip or extension) Rigid is what I criticize! Everyone got that?

Gonzales does not hit this kind of forehand, neither does Gulbis or any of the other guys that rip their bent arm forehand. they are using extension at the wrist at least and that is something i have never criticized. i stand by my stance that players allowing themselves to bend and shorten the arm to make up for better footwork and better spacing is a shortcoming. i advocate the straight extension arm forehand because it forces players to move better and gives such a consistent contact point, not to mention that lack of having to be able adjust to so many more varying contact points...which leads to my belief that the extended straight arm forehand will make more people better and faster.

maybe we should let this thread die because most of us that are studying the game are probably much closer than we realize in our beliefs and what we advocate.

Do you consider Hewitt the good or bad double bend?

I'm certainly happy to let it die, but I will remind you that you started the thread with this pronouncement:

"Has anyone ever asked why tennis players, coaches, and teaching pros think a bent arm is a rational way to hit a tennis ball?"

Now you are saying a bent arm is fine, as long as it involves wrist extension (not sure what that means). I have pretty much lost you completely so time to move on...

[oliensis]

Jeff,
You haven't lost him. He's provided a moving target, backpedaling away from numerous pronouncements as each is revealed to be what it is: overstated.
Now the "double bend" is only a "real" (bad) double bend if it's tense, cramped, and excessively rigid.
Boioioioi-oing!

And now Gonzo doesnt' hit a (bad) double bend...where previously, when I cited Gonzo, his power was not the "right" kind of power. (Like having the wrong kind of orgasm, as per Woody Allen.)

Do you consider Hewitt the good or bad double bend?

I'm certainly happy to let it die, but I will remind you that you started the thread with this pronouncement:

"Has anyone ever asked why tennis players, coaches, and teaching pros think a bent arm is a rational way to hit a tennis ball?"

Now you are saying a bent arm is fine, as long as it involves wrist extension (not sure what that means). I have pretty much lost you completely so time to move on...

[airforce1]

Easy there

Easy guys,
as he provoked a bunch of interesting FH thoughts and ideas.
We can't all write things the best way the first time.
(I should know right, LOL)

[uspta146749877]

Hewitt

Do you consider Hewitt the good or bad double bend?

I'm certainly happy to let it die, but I will remind you that you started the thread with this pronouncement:

"Has anyone ever asked why tennis players, coaches, and teaching pros think a bent arm is a rational way to hit a tennis ball?"

Now you are saying a bent arm is fine, as long as it involves wrist extension (not sure what that means). I have pretty much lost you completely so time to move on...

Mr Counts,
I know that I should NOT get in a middle of this conversation
but is it possible to provide a link to a video of Hewitt
to make this interesting conversation a bit more specific?
It would allow for a some kind of video definition of a straight arm forehand
julian mielniczuk
usptapro 2783

[jperedo]

I know that I should NOT get in a middle of this conversation
but is it possible to provide a link to a video of Hewitt
to make this interesting conversation a bit more specific?
It would allow for a some kind of video definition of a straight arm forehand

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/lleyton_hewitt/lh_forehand/lh_fh_center/lh_fh_center.html?LHFHCenterSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/robin_soderling/rs_forehand/rs_fh_center/rs_fh_center.html?RSFHCenterNeutralStanceSide2.mov

Hewitt extends his arm at the elbow to some extent during the take back. In fact, almost all the men do it including double benders (Djokovic, Roddick, Soderling, Ferrer etc.)
I've never actually observed any videos of any of these guys "shortening" their hitting arm structures into a double bend. The only time "shortening" occurs seems to be near or after contact (however I can't tell if it's a bicep contraction, or simply part of the follow through).

So in a way I can see what CK is saying, in that a player shouldn't "shorten" the arm. However, I don't think "shortening" into a double bend is something Jeff, John or anyone else teaching the double bend have ever advocated in any of their articles.

CK if you could maybe provide a video analysis of a player performing a bad double bend it would help everyone understand what you mean.

[10splayer]

From what I've seen,( but I would love to hear others opinion), when the hitting arm structure is set, the angle of the elbow does not change much, except perhaps in situations where extra topspin is desired.

[jperedo]

10splayer - agreed. A phenomenon identified by John Y and further expanded by Jeff Counts.

Just wanted to touch on the "shortening/contracting" terminology again. One thing straightarmer's such as Fed and Verdasco consistently do is maintain the height of their elbow during upper arm external rotation. Double benders on the other hand tend to tuck/lower the height of their elbows (ie decrease the distance between torso and elbow - Have my own theories as to why this happens, but a different discussion).

Maybe this is what CK meant by shortening. However "shortening" isn't the appropriate description of this phenomenon IMO.

[10splayer]

I find some of the things CK interesting, but my main point of contention, has been the term lengthening. Don't quite understand his definitioin. When double benders set the hitting arm structure, they set the angle of the elbow, and it remains by and large unchanged. Fed does the same(i.e no bend) in the backswing when he goes straight arm. In other words, there is no decernable change once the structure has been set. No lengthening, or change in the elbow angle in the forward swing, from what I've seen.

But maybe, he would dispute this, not sure.

[carrerakent]

wow, lots of feedback and lots to think about. as several have said, at first discussions and such we were all aiming for a moving target of comprehension and I've said several times i apologize for not being succinct and such.

one asked about hewitt...well, since no tennis player does anything the same all the time i have a hard time using a player as a definition for right, wrong, better, worse...

i had mentioned planning to work with brian gordon and getting a tour player that has a good enough, yet still immature game to be requested by Federer, Nadal, and Sampras as a training partner, to allow brian to set up his equipment and test his double bend and his newly straight arm/extended forehand.

i will be the first to say that scientific data isn't what i'm after, but sometimes it can shed light on what is actually happening and help us teach better.

my contention all along has been that whenever i or my mentor takes a player from a double bend to a straight arm where the extension is happening like federer's, 100% of the time their balls pace, spin, and consistency of hitting their target goes up.

i did not start our discussions saying much more than "it works for us, and i believe everyone can benefit from extending and not PULLING." I have all along been against pulling the arm (humerus) from backswing to contact point without extension of the racket out to a contact point further from the body than is typical with almost everyone I see. from 2.5 players to tour players.

when i started looking at some of the video analysis on the double bend and such i came to the conclusion that i have defined the double bend as a "double bend"...imagine that, but many of you see the double bend as a double bend that ends at contact most often as a single bend in the hitting arm. in order for a double bend arm to end up at contact or just there after as a single bend, then extension had to happen. true?

many of you keep asking for video, but that is all over the place on here. i can't tell you if a particular player felt shortening of the muscles in order to hit a stroke, but my goal is to teach lengthening of the hitting arm to contact to create a more consistent contact point AND a freer hitting arm so that when it's 4-4 in the third set tie breaker the shortened arm doesn't send the ball off the court like happens (in my opinion) way more for double benders than people that hit relaxed.

[jeffreycounts]

I find some of the things CK interesting, but my main point of contention, has been the term lengthening. Don't quite understand his definitioin. When double benders set the hitting arm structure, they set the angle of the elbow, and it remains by and large unchanged. Fed does the same(i.e no bend) in the backswing when he goes straight arm. In other words, there is no decernable change once the structure has been set. No lengthening, or change in the elbow angle in the forward swing, from what I've seen.

But maybe, he would dispute this, not sure.

That is exactly right. I was personally amazed at the constant elbow angle when I first started studying pro strokes many years ago and first came across John's work on the double bend. If you watch lower level players, or club level players you can very often see the arm snapping or moving at the elbow and it leads to a huge loss of power (not to mention tennis elbow).

[10splayer]

Yeah, I actually think, that keeping the elbow angle rather constant is one of the more important things in hitting it "solid", as the degree of elbow bend, sets the contact point, laterally speaking. Can't imagine you'd want the contact point to change, or float, in response to an ever changing elbow angle.

[uspta146749877]

Definition of lengthening

I find some of the things CK interesting, but my main point of contention, has been the term lengthening. Don't quite understand his definitioin. When double benders set the hitting arm structure, they set the angle of the elbow, and it remains by and large unchanged. Fed does the same(i.e no bend) in the backswing when he goes straight arm. In other words, there is no decernable change once the structure has been set. No lengthening, or change in the elbow angle in the forward swing, from what I've seen.

But maybe, he would dispute this, not sure.

An attempt/suggestion was made to define lengthening
at least via videos.
Nothing came out of it,as you may see from above of my post.
Very sad and discouraging.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,NA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

http://www.ndatyngsboro.org/page.cfm?p=271

juliantennis@comcast.net

[jeffreycounts]

Venus is playing Rybarikova now and they showed a side by side of Venus' backhand and Rybarikova's. Rybarikova has very straight arms on her backhand while Venus' arms are very bent. Cliff Drysdale said he thought Venus' technique was much better with the bent arm because it allows her to drive through the ball better and to get more rotation into the ball. Mary Jo agreed that Rybarikova's straight armed backhand looked very stiff.

And speaking of the Williams' sisters - has a female player ever hit the ball harder than these two double bends?

[mntlblok]

What do you think about the match?

Not a big fan of the socks. Kept trying to visualize a difference with the forehand stroke, but couldn't even tell whether the elbow was extended at contact or not, and couldn't even pick up on any particular difference in "right hip to contact point" distance with the forehand. Do girls not always keep their hair the same color??

Kevin

[rosooki]

Some thoughts

Sorry to be late to the party, but I just found this thread. I guess it falls to me to be the physics police.

It has been stated here that it requires less force to hit the straight arm forehand. That's simply untrue from a mechanics point of view. The longer the lever, the more force that must be used to swing it. A simple balance where a weight is balanced on one end shows how this works. A given amount of force on one end will raise the weight on the other end. The longer you make the end where the weight is, the more force must be applied to raise it. When swinging a tennis racket, and you want to accelerate the racket, it will take more force to accelerate a racket at the end of a longer arm than at the end of a shorter one. Imagine a children's merry-go-round at a park that you have to push to get going. The longer the radius of the merry-go-round the harder it is to accelerate it to a given speed.

The second issue is racket head speed. If you swing a stiff rod (an extended arm) at a given rate that is the velocity you will get. All points of a rigid body have the same angular speed. Points with a greater radius have a greater linear speed, and that's the benefit straight-armers are referring to - the end of the racket will be traveling faster. Now if you put a joint in the middle of it so that the joint can swing freely, and swing it again, but block the swing mid-swing, below the joint, so that one part stops and the remainder of the rod continues to swing, what happens to the angular velocity of the section still swinging? Ask a tetherball player (remember that fun game?) or a figure skater. Angular momentum makes it speed up. And another point of rotation is added. The bent-armer who uses his arm/shoulder/chest muscles as well as body rotation to pull the racket across his body has two engines, two short rotational points working together, and a lot less force required on each.

One side issue with this is that if you have already spent the energy to accelerate a straight arm, shortening the length of the arm mid-swing should make the arm really speed up with the same energy expenditure involved. If you start with a straighter arm in the backswing and shorten it through the swing the acceleration will be appreciable. I think that is a significant advantage to a bent-armer as well as to a baseball batter. Instinctively, hitters pull their arms into their chest when really trying hard to accelerate the bat.