where'd the bent arm come from anyway?

[10splayer]

Just got back from the Open yesterday, and had ringside seats to the Gonzo vs Massu match. Even as I sustained a slight case of whiplash, witnessed paint chipped from the baseline, and observed holes seared through the back fence. All I could think about, was how inefficient that stupid double-bend forehand is. And how these two hacks, could benefit from a lessson with Jason. I tried to call out to them after the match, to let them know the error of their double bend ways, but to no avail. Hopefully, they'll find their way on to this thread. God I hope so, for their sake.


Having spent the day watching the matches, I've decided that that the double bend is just not good enough for my lessons. There simply wasn't enough evidence yesterday, that a decent forehand could be hit with said structure.

So coaches out there beware, if you ever come across a 3.0 women's team, playing straight armed, with multiple cross-combinations (what I like to call F.U. 1 and F.U. 2), you'll know your team is in for a "world of hurt".

[airforce1]

So coaches out there beware, if you ever come across a 3.0 women's team, playing straight armed, with multiple cross-combinations (what I like to call F.U. 1 and F.U. 2), you'll know you're team is in for a "world of hurt".

Pretty funny!

[jeffreycounts]

Just got back from the Open yesterday, and had ringside seats to the Gonzo vs Massu match. Even as I sustained a slight case of whiplash, witnessed paint chipped from the baseline, and observed holes seared through the back fence. All I could think about, was how inefficient that stupid double-bend forehand is. And how these two hacks, could benefit from a lessson with Jason. I tried to call out to them after the match, to let them know the error of their double bend ways, but to no avail. Hopefully, they'll find their way on to this thread. God I hope so, for their sake.


Having spent the day watching the matches, I've decided that that the double bend is just not good enough for my lessons. There simply wasn't enough evidence yesterday, that a decent forehand could be hit with said structure.

So coaches out there beware, if you ever come across a 3.0 women's team, playing straight armed, with multiple cross-combinations (what I like to call F.U. 1 and F.U. 2), you'll know you're team is in for a "world of hurt".

Love it!

I was watching a doubles match last week in DC with Gonzalez and Robredo playing. Gonzalez pounded a forehand right into the opponent's chest that left a ball mark on his skin. He showed it to the crowd after the match.

It is amusing to me as well when people denigrate the double bend because the double bend is actually the underlying foundation for some of the biggest and best forehands of all time.

[nabrug]

It is amusing to me as well when people denigrate the double bend because the double bend is actually the underlying foundation for some of the biggest and best forehands of all time.

Which people Jeff? You mean carrerakent?

[mntlblok]

his most recent success was Bethanie Mattek...

Hey, you didn't tell us she got married and changed her name. . . (watching her match on ESPN2)

Kevin

[carrerakent]

Love it!

I was watching a doubles match last week in DC with Gonzalez and Robredo playing. Gonzalez pounded a forehand right into the opponent's chest that left a ball mark on his skin. He showed it to the crowd after the match.

It is amusing to me as well when people denigrate the double bend because the double bend is actually the underlying foundation for some of the biggest and best forehands of all time.

And the underlying foundation for definitely the worst forehands of all time. Don't forget those!

[jeffreycounts]

Which people Jeff? You mean carrerakent?

Nobody in particular. I have heard a select few say negative things about the double bend, not just carrerakent. He definitely has people in his camp.

I just find 10splayer observation to be right on. When you watch Fernando Gonzalez ripping the cover off the ball in person, it is hard to believe that the double bend is some sort of inferior, biomechanically weak technique.

[nabrug]

This post has been deleted for violation of forum guidelines.

[uspta146749877]

Bethany

Hey, you didn't tell us she got married and changed her name. . . (watching her match on ESPN2)

Kevin

What do you think about the match?

[oliensis]

Apropos of whether a double bend or straight-arm forehand is "better", I'd like to share something from my personal experience.

My wife was a ballet dancer. Had a scholarship to Joffrey when young. Danced w/ Fort Worth Ballet...she grew up in St. Louis, living there through high school.

I, on the other hand (as I've mentioned before) studied at least 4 different martial arts between ages 19 & 35. I grew up in New Jersey, Uganda (Africa), and Milwaukee. Lived all 3 places by the time I was 6 yrs old. As a consequence of my itinerent childhood, I learned 3 different variations of the ABC song (including calling "Z," "Zed.")

My wife, the St. Louisan ballet dancer insists that all versions of the ABC song save the one she learned are WRONG.

She also believes that people should walk around with their tummies tight and tucked in, as ballet dancers do. By contrast I have learned Indian, Chinese, and Korean breathing techniques, some of which involve allowing your belly to hang very loose, encouraging a more rounded physical appearance when standing. (Others of which actually involve sucking in the gut while inhaling and pushing it out while exhaling--it's called "reverse breathing.")

My wife, the tight-tummied St. Louisan ballet dancing one-way-ABC-singer is a purist. I, a New Jersey-an, African, Milwaukeean (Jewish) student of Chinese, Indian, and Korean martial arts who learned the ABCs 3 different ways, am more of an eclectic.

Maybe...just maybe...there's more than one way to skin a cat...or sing the ABCs...or hit a forehand...and hit it extremely well...and efficiently.

On positive note, all this thinking/jabbering about the forehand...and today when I hit for an hour w/ a friend, I was ripping the ball consistently and wickedly...better than ever.

Footwork and spacing, baby...we can certainly all agree that these things are good.

[nabrug]

Nobody in particular. I have heard a select few say negative things about the double bend, not just carrerakent. He definitely has people in his camp.

I just find 10splayer observation to be right on. When you watch Fernando Gonzalez ripping the cover off the ball in person, it is hard to believe that the double bend is some sort of inferior, biomechanically weak technique.

My post has been deleted. I wonder why. It only said that I am in your camp on this one. Because I think FH1 (sorry 10splayer) produces the flattest and there for the fastest strokes. That was all. FOR US ALL.

[nabrug]

[QUOTE=oliensis;9411] I, a New Jersey-an, African, Milwaukeean (Jewish) student of Chinese, Indian, and Korean martial arts who learned the ABCs 3 different ways, am more of an eclectic.

Maybe...just maybe...there's more than one way to skin a cat...or sing the ABCs...or hit a forehand...and hit it extremely well...and efficiently.

QUOTE]

So why are you fighting the idea that there might be 2 FH techniques so vigourisly?

[oliensis]

That's hilarious. I never fought the idea that there were 2 FH techniques. (Billie Jean King said she hit the ball 19 different ways. Her biggest problem was figuring out when to hit it which way.) My only problem w/ your posts was a)your inability or unwillingness to define your #1 & #2 tecniques. b) some presumptuousness in your attitude that you had unlocked the secrets of the universe that nobody else had access to.

[QUOTE=nabrug;9416]

I, a New Jersey-an, African, Milwaukeean (Jewish) student of Chinese, Indian, and Korean martial arts who learned the ABCs 3 different ways, am more of an eclectic.

Maybe...just maybe...there's more than one way to skin a cat...or sing the ABCs...or hit a forehand...and hit it extremely well...and efficiently.

QUOTE]

So why are you fighting the idea that there might be 2 FH techniques so vigourisly?

[carrerakent]

Nobody in particular. I have heard a select few say negative things about the double bend, not just carrerakent. He definitely has people in his camp.

I just find 10splayer observation to be right on. When you watch Fernando Gonzalez ripping the cover off the ball in person, it is hard to believe that the double bend is some sort of inferior, biomechanically weak technique.

Jeff, somehow this thread got the wrong impressions going and some added confusion as to what double bends are and straight arm FHs are. What I have always believed to be a double bend is a stroke where at contact the elbow and wrist are still rigid and often shortening, or bending more from the backswing.(see my first posts where I criticize the pulling through of the arm, no whip or extension) Rigid is what I criticize! Everyone got that?

Gonzales does not hit this kind of forehand, neither does Gulbis or any of the other guys that rip their bent arm forehand. they are using extension at the wrist at least and that is something i have never criticized. i stand by my stance that players allowing themselves to bend and shorten the arm to make up for better footwork and better spacing is a shortcoming. i advocate the straight extension arm forehand because it forces players to move better and gives such a consistent contact point, not to mention that lack of having to be able adjust to so many more varying contact points...which leads to my belief that the extended straight arm forehand will make more people better and faster.

maybe we should let this thread die because most of us that are studying the game are probably much closer than we realize in our beliefs and what we advocate.

[airforce1]

maybe we should let this thread die because most of us that are studying the game are probably much closer than we realize in our beliefs and what we advocate.

Don't agree with the letting it die part, but like what you are saying about us being closer than we realize.
I understand that it seems to be painfully slow at times, but more and more info gets leaked as this discussion evolves. I may even know what he is calling a FH2 now. I do really enjoying hearing the perspectives on the FH though.