where'd the bent arm come from anyway?

[carrerakent]

If you look at the after clip of the pupil of Jason what is your opinion about the hip action of the FH compared to the BH. I think you like to see more hip action at the BH. Don't you?

Nico.

Nico,

I think of hip action in terms of how much driving force do i want to generate and what my situation is based upon what the ball is doing coming at me and when i get to my setup position. not whether there is more on one side vs the other. on the backhand side we teach the back leg in a position just like the forehand....not the leg closer to the ball stepping across. (that's so inefficient.)

i think if you looked at a jason or kent backhand and forehand at hips only you likely shouldn't be able to see much difference.

i just had to do some shadow strokes in the office... my feet, legs, hips are identical on both forehand and backhand for the same height ball.

[carrerakent]

In the 3rd (?) Jeff Counts' article about the straight arm FH you can see the comparison between Federer and Philipousis. FH2 (Federer) vs FH1. The difference is that Federer can hit also like Philipousis but not vice versa.

Nico,

I hadn't seen that article by Jeff. That is interesting. Philipousis hits what to me is more like a straight arm forehand and the Federer example is what I had only started calling an extended forehand on here because it seemed like people were lumping all forehands where the ball was contacted with a straight arm into the same basket. I will look at that series of articles more closely when I have time.

I am definitely an advocate of what you are calling the FH2 if we are only talking about these examples shown. Lots of folks on here want to call any stroke that has a bent elbow a double bend even when the wrist extends through just before to make an extended wrist at contact. At least that has been my take. An FH2 that gets just a little inside on you doesn't make it a double bend. Agree?

[nabrug]

Nico,

I think of hip action in terms of how much driving force do i want to generate and what my situation is based upon what the ball is doing coming at me and when i get to my setup position. not whether there is more on one side vs the other. on the backhand side we teach the back leg in a position just like the forehand....not the leg closer to the ball stepping across. (that's so inefficient.)

i think if you looked at a jason or kent backhand and forehand at hips only you likely shouldn't be able to see much difference.

i just had to do some shadow strokes in the office... my feet, legs, hips are identical on both forehand and backhand for the same height ball.

No, I mean the girl in the clip. The hip action on the BH side is not at the same level as the FH yet.

[carrerakent]

No, I mean the girl in the clip. The hip action on the BH side is not at the same level as the FH yet.

oh. sorry. yeah, i agree. she only had a few hours with jason and still needed alot of work. he would have her doing so many things differently with her movement and hip alignment etc had she not lived 1000 miles away.

i recall him talking about that few days with her and he was just focusing on getting her to look at the ball (which i'm guessing no one teaches because no one knows how to do it...i'm gonna get chastised for that) and recognize a different contact point and learning to get further from it.

if you want to see jason's finished product wait until artem sitak makes tv or if someone taped him kicking sampras' butt last december, then you can see movement as close to federer... but wasn't born with it...but taught it. he moves like a cat.

[nabrug]

Nico,

I hadn't seen that article by Jeff. That is interesting. Philipousis hits what to me is more like a straight arm forehand and the Federer example is what I had only started calling an extended forehand on here because it seemed like people were lumping all forehands where the ball was contacted with a straight arm into the same basket. I will look at that series of articles more closely when I have time.

I am definitely an advocate of what you are calling the FH2 if we are only talking about these examples shown. Lots of folks on here want to call any stroke that has a bent elbow a double bend even when the wrist extends through just before to make an extended wrist at contact. At least that has been my take. An FH2 that gets just a little inside on you doesn't make it a double bend. Agree?

Yes. That is what I call cross combinations between two techniques. And these cross combinations make that certain people (f.i. mr. Y.) see 20-60 types of FH's with Federer.

[nabrug]

i recall him talking about that few days with her and he was just focusing on getting her to look at the ball (which i'm guessing no one teaches because no one knows how to do it...i'm gonna get chastised for that) and recognize a different contact point and learning to get further from it.

Wrong again. (Is that a habit of yours?)

As you could read I think of tennis as sending but a lot more in the reception of a ball. I have a very simple drill to let even have 4 year olds making an eye jump (saccade) while focussing. I can't say I let them look at the ball but I ask them to do what I think Federer and Nadal are doing.

[airforce1]

As you could read I think of tennis as sending but a lot more in the reception of a ball. I have a very simple drill to let even have 4 year olds making an eye jump (saccade) while focussing. I can't say I let them look at the ball but I ask them to do what I think Federer and Nadal are doing.

Looked at the vids you suggested of Philipousis and Fed.
does the FH2 have to do with the shape of the swing and how Fed pulls back with his body, where Phil presses out to the ball?

Also, what is your simple drill for kids?

[carrerakent]

Looked at the vids you suggested of Philipousis and Fed.
does the FH2 have to do with the shape of the swing and how Fed pulls back with his body, where Phil presses out to the ball?

Also, what is your simple drill for kids?

airforce1, i don't think you were asking me, but i am certain federer is pulling his body back to maintain his extended arm contact. not as a technique of the stroke.

[uspta990770809]

Nico, I never got a response for post #60 above

I feel a little like Joe Pesci in Lethal Weapon II, III when he gets excited or maybe Ron Carey in High Anxiety: "I got it. I got it. I got it....I don't got it" Oh well, I'm dating myself, but here goes

I looked at Jeff's "Straight Arm Forehand - Part III" for the comparison of Philipousis and Federer (Tour Strokes) and if Nabrug is saying that is the difference between FH1 and FH2, then it is a straight arm wiper forehand, but with the difference that Federer gets so far inside and can release his wrist (I don't want to say snap, but that may be the case, explaining the inconsistency Air Force refers to) whereas Phillipousis keeps a more classical laid back wrist through the hit (the effect given by the SquareHit Wrist Assist endorsed by Brad Gilbert - I like that thing a lot). And as Jeff points out, Federer gets a lot more racket head speed as a result. And then finishes with the racket lower across his body and pointing down.

So, Nabrug, have I got it? have I got it? have I got it? ... or no, I don't got it!

don

Nico,
I never really got an answer if I got it right in this post or not. Did I?
don

[nabrug]

Nico,
I never really got an answer if I got it right in this post or not. Did I?
don

Oh sorry. I thought you gave the answer yourself (... or no, I don't got it!).

Sorry Don it is a really different technique.

[airforce1]

Looked at the vids you suggested of Philipousis and Fed.
does the FH2 have to do with the shape of the swing and how Fed pulls back with his body, where Phil presses out to the ball?

Also, what is your simple drill for kids?

Narbug, what about this question?

[nabrug]

Narbug, what about this question?

Good questions.

We are not allowed to know your name but Fatthorse I gave you my name.

"......besides, i've paid a couple of thousand dollars for what jason has taught me. why should i give it to you guys for free? many of you would just use it to try to find fault based upon your track records already..............".

[tennisplayer]

I am still wondering if you know the difference between FH1 and FH2. That is why I am very interested in seeing you and/or your coach hitting FH2. But for now is this clip showing a FH1 or a FH2?

Thanks, Nico.

I think I know the difference now... this particular clip:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/roger_federer/roger_federer_high_speed.html?FHShortFront-0023125-0001.mov

is showing FH1. The way I distinguish between the two is via racquet swing path. The FH1 swing path is more back to front, and there could be some obstruction to the follow through as the hitting arm folds over the pecs. FH2 is a freer, more unfettered swing, from inside to outside, and low to high. Imagine swinging your arms back and forth as if you were marching. There is no obstruction to the follow through. As a result, the kinetics (muscle usage) is different in FH1 and FH2 (I mentioned this in one of my earlier posts). Combinations of the two are also possible, and it looks like Federer frequently employs strokes that are in between.

Right, nabrug?

[airforce1]

Good questions.

We are not allowed to know your name but Fatthorse I gave you my name.

"......besides, i've paid a couple of thousand dollars for what jason has taught me. why should i give it to you guys for free? many of you would just use it to try to find fault based upon your track records already..............".

Fatthorse?? what is that about?

fine, but I just hope you are a woman, because this is quite a tease you try to get going on this FH2 thing, LoL.

first it is "everyone look at what I know and you don't know"
then, "ok, i'll give you a hint and a peek"
then, "NO, i'll keep this for myself, cause you wouldn't understand"

Sorry, I thought you had an idea to share on the forum. Don't know where I got that idea. I thought if you got enough attention, that you would eventually drop the tease, but whatever...
I was hoping you had something interesting to say.
Reminds me of an infomercial- all sizzle and no Steak!

You and Jason enjoy your little secret.

[nabrug]

I think I know the difference now... this particular clip:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/roger_federer/roger_federer_high_speed.html?FHShortFront-0023125-0001.mov

is showing FH1. The way I distinguish between the two is via racquet swing path. The FH1 swing path is more back to front, and there could be some obstruction to the follow through as the hitting arm folds over the pecs. FH2 is a freer, more unfettered swing, from inside to outside, and low to high. Imagine swinging your arms back and forth as if you were marching. There is no obstruction to the follow through. As a result, the kinetics (muscle usage) is different in FH1 and FH2 (I mentioned this in one of my earlier posts). Combinations of the two are also possible, and it looks like Federer frequently employs strokes that are in between.

Right, nabrug?

Again very clever observations by you. Please don't tell anybody else!

Nico.