where'd the bent arm come from anyway?

[carrerakent]

Please call me Brian - I guess I'm biased but cause and effect is a very difficult to determine - obviously the body is composed of linked segments moved by muscle and joint force - all motor actions, including the ones you mention have different goals and therefore the segments are moved accordingly - call it the kinetic chain if you like - but I thought we were talking about the forehand.

Anyway, contrary to what Nabrug attributes my post to, I'm interested in hearing the details of your method, and based on referencing biomechanics figured you may have done some research to support your method.

But, I'll do it one better - as I recall you said you are in Florida - later this fall or early next year I'll be moving one of my measurement systems into S. Fla. - I'd be happy to help you investigate more in depth the theories behind your method - a serious offer - P.M. me if you are interested.

Brian, I've sent you a personal message and maybe we can test a pro player that has recently changed from the bent arm to the extended arm forehand. His ranking improvements and personal account will surely add to the study.

I do agree with your post above regarding cause and effect and the such being so difficult to determine. I think because I personally experienced enormous spin and power with virtually no effort at all during the first lesson with my coach, and i FELT the biomechnical feedback of less energy expenditure, greater balance, and an effortless feeling, which is possibly the most accurate test.

Thanks

[carrerakent]

Good stuff here. My favorite analogy for the double bend is pushing open a door. When you push open a door your arm is in a perfect double bend with the wrist laid slightly back. This strong, leveraged position makes it easy to push open an extremely heavy door. It's your body naturally finding a leveraged position with a bent arm. Think also of pushing or shoving someone. The arms are bent on contact so you can get a good leveraged push. If your arms were straight, it would be hard to drive through the target.

Anyway, I agree that the straight arm and double bend are the two pro models, with the double bend being the one people naturally gravitate towards. There just aren't that many things we as humans do with perfectly straight arms. But when the straight arms is executed - ala Nadal/Verdasco - it's obviously pretty amazing.

The question remains, however, as to why so very, very few players are able to straighten the arm while the overwhelming majority naturally gravitate to the double bend. I would have to believe that when 5 year old kids (the typical age for future world class players to start tennis) pick up the sport they don't have the strength to drive the ball with a straight arm. And I don't think women do either which is why there has only been one female player to ever pull off the straight arm forehand (Henin), whereas on the men's side we have had at least three of four that were able to pull it off.

It would be really cool to see footage of Nadal or Verdasco playing at 5 or 6. Were they hitting forehands with a straight arm at that age, or did the stroke evolve?

Jeff, i like your analogy, but a tennis ball doesn't require a body to be "behind it" to generate all of the necessary force does it? racket head speed is what we are after as tennis players, right? less energy expenditure and greater accuracy is what we are after right? since i used to hit a single bend because all of my money got my elbow tucked into my side and now i hit extended and at age 45 and i know i hit twice as hard a ball this year as two years ago i just can't think of letting my son hit with a bent arm by design.

i used to teach to be firm behind your shots hit through it and all of the old methods of elbow in and you are so much stronger with your racket in closer to you...i think that is where the double bend came from. a misunderstanding of how to exhibit maximum racket head force. when people were starting to try to hit the cover off the ball, there weren't any physiologists, "famous coaches" standing there, God forbid, and biomechanical devices testing the best method. it was an evolution of kids trying to adapt and i think that is the answer to Mr. Yandell questions as to why is it so prevalent then...i think cause the experts and the most gifted athletes in the world weren't the one's evolving. it would only take one kid showing up at IMG or Saddlebrook hitting the ball harder than anyone else and within 6 months that is THE way to hit it. Regardless of whether or not it was the best way. Do you agree?

I'm trying to figure out a way to get everyone "pulling" off the extended forehand. If the coaches don't get it, the students never will.

[oliensis]

Mr. O,

you are right, i could have just said don't get too close....etc. But, that proves that you do not understand where I am going.

...i've wasted way too much time trying to give,

You're a giver.
Any time you want to post videos so we can all see what you're talking about, I'm eager to be enlightened.

BTW, here's what I'll give... a link to a picture of my first Tae Kwon Do master doing a speed break of two bricks with a strike called an Inside Sudo Maki, which uses the closest thing to a forehand motion that you'll find in martial arts, striking with the meety part of the blade of the hand with the palm turned up. The bricks rest on the holder's hands, one behind the other with no support. So the speed of the strike must be so extreme that the bricks, which are unsupported, break before they have a chance to move.

And lookee there, at the configuration of the elbow and hand! Could that be...is it possible it's...no, it couldn't be the....d-d-d-d-d-d...

http://www.madisontkd.com/images/TKD31.jpg

Look at the focus of his eyes and the stillness of his head!...how the left hand has pulled across, how he's rotating through what would be called a square stance in tennis...

It's a shame he got his spacing wrong!

[carrerakent]

Carrerakent,
I have tried to keep up in this thread, but it takes turns that surprise me each day. I don't mind your approach too much, as I'm more interested in learning. I want the hear what you are so fired up about, even if you are wrong, cause there still must be a lot gained from the exercise. I'm pretty sure you are not entirely wrong either. Some others must be too, or they wouldn't keep responding to you.

Can you remind me of your main reason for the idea that your FH is so much better?
It isn't sheer power is it, as Fed doesn't have the biggest FH in the game, even when compared to some of the double benders.
It isn't control is it, cause he has had quite a struggle with UEs on that pesky FH over the last year and a half.
Is it efficiency of some kind?
Is it more spin?
Is it more natural in some way?
Realize these are honest questions, not some kind of bait, as I appreciate your effort to try and share something you have found very exciting. You could have just kept it close if you were more selfish. I know how frustrating it can be to try and share your findings here at times. Several years ago when this site was very new, I tried to get an article on racket drop, delayed elbow extension, and launch position for the serve working, but didn't find much interest. I don't really blame anyone, but it was frustrating and still is as I see more and more of that technique become accepted and discussed. Just like the next one that I followed with on "position on the ball" and contact point. You can guess how I felt seeing that pop up here 5-6 yrs later.
I have a new one now on redefining depth and the transition game, but I don't think it will make this site. If anyone is interested, contact me for info.

Also if you understand Narbug's fh1 and fh2, will please explain it to those of us who want to know what the heck he is talking about? Cause I really am interested in that too.

AIRFORCE 1,

first, it's not my forehand that i think is so good. my personal one is a work in progress. i am trying to describe how to hit the federer forehand. that's my purpose in a nutshell.

secondly, yes, it is greater control of your target, spin and power through more efficient stroke production. As for Fed's recent problems...I keep trying to get my coach to call him. ha ha.. seriously. I don't think technique has anything to do with his current problems...or he wouldn't have the big 15. he seems lackadaisical in his movement and choices.

thirdly, yes, more natural for sure. definitely more spin. the loose action of the wrist coming through just before contact (not wrist flick nay sayers...stay down boys) but the natural kinetic chain or natural biomechanical extension of the body parts out to the hand creates immense spin and power. but note it is not generated via PULLING. that's why i see the double bend as the worst technique imaginable. it goes against all forms of what is "natural" in my mind and would be in the minds of anyone that has experienced true loose, fluid, in the zone release in throwing, hitting a tennis ball, whatever.

when federer was coming on the scene everyone was amazed at his duplication of that amazing forehand. everyone was scratching their heads. it was just his genius in everyones minds...that is all anyone could come up with. my coach studied federer tons and developed in his own game the same forehand. (when he gets here to florida to train with me in a few weeks i'm gonna ask him to let me post his forehand on you tube.)

my coach figured out how federer does it. now he teaches it. he took bethanie mattek from 150 or so to top 40 by making that and a few other changes. it must be said that she was not even a good student or good example of his teaching and see where it got her. she still doesn't do it like my coach taught her...but sometimes close.

i hired my coach because i saw him hitting the federer forehand warming bethanie up at a tournament. i had to find out how he does it since we know federer doesn't know how he does it himself and i couldn't ask him.

my coach spent 5 hours with me a few months later and blew my mind. in 5 hours he did not say one thing that i had ever heard. it was all cutting edge and breaking all of the molds. i didn't buy into it but he proved what he said in my own game immediately. with his teaching method i gained crazy accuracy, spin i had never had before, but it was the loopy kind nadal hits, it was the more penetrating kind Fed hits...which was my desire.

what i'm trying to get across on this site is an opening of the minds about all of the many factors that prevents all of us from hitting something similar to Federer. i'm trying to help coaches realize that they are teaching kids to NOT be able to hit a shot they all pretty much wish they could.

[carrerakent]

You're a giver.
Any time you want to post videos so we can all see what you're talking about, I'm eager to be enlightened.

BTW, here's what I'll give... a link to a picture of my first Tae Kwon Do master doing a speed break of two bricks with a strike called an Inside Sudo Maki, which uses the closest thing to a forehand motion that you'll find in martial arts, striking with the meety part of the blade of the hand with the palm turned up. The bricks rest on the holder's hands, one behind the other with no support. So the speed of the strike must be so extreme that the bricks, which are unsupported, break before they have a chance to move.

And lookee there, at the configuration of the elbow and hand! Could that be...is it possible it's...no, it couldn't be the....d-d-d-d-d-d...

http://www.madisontkd.com/images/TKD31.jpg

Look at the focus of his eyes and the stillness of his head!...how the left hand has pulled across, how he's rotating through what would be called a square stance in tennis...

It's a shame he got his spacing wrong!

Mr. O. nope...looks to me he got his spacing just where he wanted it. he had a non moving object he set up where he wanted and executed. i used to break boards and bricks in martial arts too when i was in junior high and i would never have done it with a totally extended arm. so your point isn't lost...it's just that your master was not concerned with taking a moving object, reversing the spin and placing it exactly where he wanted in the court over and over without wasting tons of energy.

i've already said, you want video proof. look at federer videos. no one has ever hit so many forehand winners with such consistent pace, spin, and accuracy with so much ease. it looks effortless, doesn't it? does nadal look duplicatable and effortless. No way. That's my point, ease of effort, maximum return and accuracy...not generating maximum force that the body is capable of like you master.

[airforce1]

You're a giver.

http://www.madisontkd.com/images/TKD31.jpg

Look at the focus of his eyes and the stillness of his head!...how the left hand has pulled across, how he's rotating through what would be called a square stance in tennis...

It's a shame he got his spacing wrong!

What a crazy awesome pic!

[airforce1]

i've already said, you want video proof. look at federer videos. no one has ever hit so many forehand winners with such consistent pace, spin, and accuracy with so much ease. it looks effortless, doesn't it? does nadal look duplicatable and effortless. No way. That's my point, ease of effort, maximum return and accuracy...not generating maximum force that the body is capable of like you master.

this is what I was looking for with my earlier question.
I think I get your point better about what you feel this FH does so well.

[johnyandell]

carerra, if i want your input on my forehand i'll be sure to let you know...in the meantime keep the disrespect out of it and i'm serious about that.

[jeffreycounts]

You're a giver.
Any time you want to post videos so we can all see what you're talking about, I'm eager to be enlightened.

BTW, here's what I'll give... a link to a picture of my first Tae Kwon Do master doing a speed break of two bricks with a strike called an Inside Sudo Maki, which uses the closest thing to a forehand motion that you'll find in martial arts, striking with the meety part of the blade of the hand with the palm turned up. The bricks rest on the holder's hands, one behind the other with no support. So the speed of the strike must be so extreme that the bricks, which are unsupported, break before they have a chance to move.

And lookee there, at the configuration of the elbow and hand! Could that be...is it possible it's...no, it couldn't be the....d-d-d-d-d-d...

http://www.madisontkd.com/images/TKD31.jpg

Look at the focus of his eyes and the stillness of his head!...how the left hand has pulled across, how he's rotating through what would be called a square stance in tennis...

It's a shame he got his spacing wrong!

Great example! Love the pic!

[jeffreycounts]

Jeff, i like your analogy, but a tennis ball doesn't require a body to be "behind it" to generate all of the necessary force does it? racket head speed is what we are after as tennis players, right? less energy expenditure and greater accuracy is what we are after right? since i used to hit a single bend because all of my money got my elbow tucked into my side and now i hit extended and at age 45 and i know i hit twice as hard a ball this year as two years ago i just can't think of letting my son hit with a bent arm by design.

i used to teach to be firm behind your shots hit through it and all of the old methods of elbow in and you are so much stronger with your racket in closer to you...i think that is where the double bend came from. a misunderstanding of how to exhibit maximum racket head force. when people were starting to try to hit the cover off the ball, there weren't any physiologists, "famous coaches" standing there, God forbid, and biomechanical devices testing the best method. it was an evolution of kids trying to adapt and i think that is the answer to Mr. Yandell questions as to why is it so prevalent then...i think cause the experts and the most gifted athletes in the world weren't the one's evolving. it would only take one kid showing up at IMG or Saddlebrook hitting the ball harder than anyone else and within 6 months that is THE way to hit it. Regardless of whether or not it was the best way. Do you agree?

I'm trying to figure out a way to get everyone "pulling" off the extended forehand. If the coaches don't get it, the students never will.

I actually agree with you that Federer's straighter arm and integration of the wrist on some balls gives him a technical edge. I think he takes the ball earlier than other players and can generate more torque with these technical changes. I would even say that this technical edge is probably the biggest reason he has been able to dominate for so long.

I'm just not convinced that it is so easy to do. I actually think it is a lot harder than the standard double bend because you have to integrate the legs, torso rotation, the wrist and the arm/forearm to pull it off and I think Federer's timing is just tremendous and is something that would require years of repetition and thousand of hours of practice to ever get right. I think it is easy to ignore the fact that Federer has probably been playing 4-5 hours of tennis a day for 20+ years. He makes it look easy - and that is his genius - but the complexity of the interacting elements there is undeniable.

The other problem is that if you have been playing with a double bend forehand for years it would be close to impossible to change your technique so drastically. I do not believe that any professional player would be able to convert from a double bend to a straighter arm. And if they couldn't do it, how on earth could any of us?

However, I'm glad it worked for you and would love to see some examples of students doing this and to hear from your coach. As they say - proof is in the pudding.

[bottle]

Racket Head Unfurling to Right

No, I think Roger Federer's forehand is more easily imitated than any other great stroke in the last hundred years, e.g., with less to figure out certainly than in a Don Budge backhand, which according to him was an exceedingly natural shot that anyone could do, at least in a beneficial if not open championship way (but concave to straight to concave-- wrist-- who would have thought it?). His brother Lloyd, the teaching pro in the family, taught something pretty similar to everybody, and among older players, the great one-handers often still look Budge-influenced.

Through simple pursuit of my Federfore, like carrerakent, I experienced a sea change in accuracy, with my learning method consisting of no more than dropping two and one-half basket of balls every day and hitting them, and then playing matches twice a week against a good opponent, someone who never changes his game very much. (I did this for about three years, but there was no way to know what I know now-- a much shorter time becomes increasingly possible for other players, I'm sure, as the pool of available knowledge grows.)

The hardest thing to figure out was what other players were trying to say about Federer on the internet.

And I do think all of us probably say too much. But when carerrakent identifies two different impulses: 1) to hit through the ball or 2) to hit past it, I think he is perfectly in focus. I should know better than anyone that when you bury information that essential in other detail it quickly gets lost, i.e., all the various ideas on every topic begin to compete with themselves.

Whether the wrist or forearm or both releases as the racket head unfurls to right I don't know, but do believe it's a passive, effortless movement caused by two changes of direction in the path of the swing combined with loose grip.

You keep your head down like a good golfer. Some things are going to the left and some to the right, and the whole of it feels great. The strings make a surgical incision in the air.

There's push but it comes from the great spiraling body swing only.

I do think the arm is strong when it's scissoring (a moving double-bend?) but that its weakness when fully extended probably doesn't matter much. I see that maximum separation shot as a speed lever, not a strength lever.

[bottle]

Addendum

A Federfore is a CONSERVATIVE stroke. Lendl: Elbow all over the place. Agassi: Elbow all over the place. Del Potro: Elbow all over the place. Federer: Elbow in one place.

[carrerakent]

jeff,

i don't have time to reply to everything you said right now, but i am going to take some video after the pro season of one of my coaches players that just changed from a bent arm to a FH like Federer just this spring. All of a sudden he is kicking butt and his own testimony and video will be informative once i can get on here.

btw, this pro player changed over the course of four weeks and he swears by it. the talk on tour was that his forehand was his weakness. definitely not anymore.

more later.

thanks for your reply.

[carrerakent]

bottle, absolutely correct! speed instead of leverage. that's a huge differing factor. in order for a player to go from double bend to straight, you have to make them distance themselves far enough away from the ball that they have no choice but to elongate. once they make contact with one totally effortless FH like they have never hit in their lives before, then they start trying to duplicate it. the coach then has to watch out for the single bend sneaking in cause it will over and over. have to keep focusing on the distance from their back hip and contact point and moving them further from the ball when they TRY to hit it hard.

[holyhobo]

Absolutely far and FUZZY!