Dog Pat Part 2

[airforce1]

I finally got the video up of her "before" we started on Feb 1, 2009. No "dog pat", but she was swinging way around. The "dog pat" seems to have been a compensation for cutting that backswing down. I think it points to the fact that I need to get her back to getting the racket a little more inside before she swings forward. That is: she has the shaft of the racket pointed slightly to the rear deuce corner instead of straight back or slightly to the ad corner side as she drops the racket head down. Could this be a key to the problem?

don

the link is

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalTe.../0/VERu5UJmMU0

don, isn't the key to why her backswing is sooo wrapped back,
that her entire swing is done with her arm behind the plane of her shoulders?
sort of dragging everything around..

[uspta990770809]

this was where we started

don, isn't the key to why her backswing is sooo wrapped back,
that her entire swing is done with her arm behind the plane of her shoulders?
sort of dragging everything around..

This video was the "before" picture. I had not given Amber any lessons when we took these shots. Something I do whenever I start with someone. (Click on the 8/18 views right next to this on the youtube site for the current stroke.) And I think you are right, the arm is so far behind her shoulders all she is doing is pulling. It seems my getting her to modify her backswing has gotten her into pushing a little bit and created the closed-face problems. I'm following all the thoughts in these posts and I think one of the reasons we are still having problems is although I got her to correct the length of the backswing a little bit, the racket is pointed off to the right (deuce corner) at the end of the backswing and she should really have the racket head more inside with the butt of the racket pointed at the ball a little earlier. I think this is related to the difficulty in getting the face back to vertical. I'm wondering if I should have used some other approach to get her to shorten that backswing, but I felt I needed to shorten that backswing and get her arm back into the plane of her shoulders as you say.

What do you think?

don

[tcuk]

Don,

Shouldn't the focus of attention be on the angle of the racket face, period? Get the angle of the racket up 15 degrees and the rest will take care of itself.

I downloaded a side view of Federer hitting a forehand from the high speed archive and played it side-by-side to G's. It all becomes crystal clear once you do a comparision like that.

You can close the racket face a lot on the way to striking the ball - like Federer - but you can never close it completely flat, otherwise you get an Amber or a G, where the gravity drop (the bottom part of the loop) gets lost.

[airforce1]

Okay. I think I got it up.
Here are 2 of the clips John used in the "Your Strokes" article last month cut to the part he included and 2 more clips of the same views taken this last Tuesday.

On youtube, the tags are:

AP FhRear 4 28 09cut
AP FhDS HS 5 12 09cut
AP Fh Rear HS 8 18 09cut
AP FhDS HS 8 18 09cut

the straight links are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVOiCGEWc3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pXOdkHTq0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3V5htOCxDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

Hope that works. Not that bad at all... if I did it right!
don

Even in the above vids, the first thing I noticed was how the shoulders started, then drug the hitting arm. I do agree it was maybe worse in the before vid.

I believe this comes from over concern of early racket speed, especially in kids who are weak. This can lead to compensations such as we see and be tough on the timing as well. Focusing on slower prep and more speed later into the ball should help.
I mentioned this to tcuk in a pm, but don't think he got it yet.

[uspta990770809]

Concern over early racket speed

Even in the above vids, the first thing I noticed was how the shoulders started, then drug the hitting arm. I do agree it was maybe worse in the before vid.

I believe this comes from over concern of early racket speed, especially in kids who are weak. This can lead to compensations such as we see and be tough on the timing as well. Focusing on slower prep and more speed later into the ball should help.
I mentioned this to tcuk in a pm, but don't think he got it yet.

"Concern over early racket speed" is a great way to put it. The kids are trying to get the racket up to high speed faster than they can do it instantaneously and they end up jerking and pulling the head away from the ball. However, I think I have to find a different way to tell it to an 11 year old. But for me, that hits it right on the nail head.

And Stotty, I think the racket face verticality is paramount, but I'm wondering if I caused the problem by forcing her to limit the big backswing. So as John mentioned, I think I need to get the angle of the racket shaft coming into the shot a little more inside. I'm a huge believer that "all" shots are hit inside out (relative to the intended line of the shot) or at least should be with very few exceptions. That's hard to do if the racket head is outside that line (like in Roddick's backhand, at least his old one.)

don

[airforce1]

"Concern over early racket speed" is a great way to put it. The kids are trying to get the racket up to high speed faster than they can do it instantaneously and they end up jerking and pulling the head away from the ball. However, I think I have to find a different way to tell it to an 11 year old. But for me, that hits it right on the nail head.

don

thanks Don, finding the right words can be the key sometimes. Now you get to find the right ones for your student : )

[uspta990770809]

Building speed

thanks Don, finding the right words can be the key sometimes. Now you get to find the right ones for your student : )

Airforce,
Is that kind of like pilots trusting they will build enough speed by the end of the runway?
don

[10splayer]

Can anyone download the first video of Roddick in the high speed video archive? Not the 2.0 version.

[airforce1]

Airforce,
Is that kind of like pilots trusting they will build enough speed by the end of the runway?
don

yes, LoL, probably something like that. It can be hard enough for us as coaches to communicate as we have seen on the forum. It really shows how tough it can be to communicate with students.

[uspta990770809]

roddick's forehand

Can anyone download the first video of Roddick in the high speed video archive? Not the 2.0 version.

10splayer, if you mean this one

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

I had no problem downloading it. Good example of the dogpat, but getting back towards vertical coming forward. I wonder if the fact that it is still a little too closed fits with why he doesn't hit it as big as some of the other big boys even though he is actually more physically imposing than most of them.

don

[tcuk]

Don,

I think dog pat is only an issue when it is prolonged - like Amber and G - and the transition from backswing to forward becomes hampered as result.

10splayer, if you mean this one

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

I had no problem downloading it. Good example of the dogpat, but getting back towards vertical coming forward. I wonder if the fact that it is still a little too closed fits with why he doesn't hit it as big as some of the other big boys even though he is actually more physically imposing than most of them.

don

[uspta146749877]

Stance

Julian,
We've been focused on the full swing through the ball and getting the face squared up a little sooner, but I actually like the stance she is using here. Not particularly pleased with the way the weight stayed back, but I like a stance a little open like that. I'll try to get the full clips up on youtube so you can see the full stroke in context.

What do you see?
don

Don,
I would prefer more open stance
please compare with

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

[carrerakent]

Don,
I would prefer more open stance
please compare with

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow

[uspta146749877]

Open stance

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow

Hi,
you may discuss pluses of open stance with your coach,
especially recovery benefits.
Some digging in posts of username julian would probably
help as well-the topic above was discussed through last three years.
Some numerical data are available to compare open stance and neutral one.
Please see

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/John_Yandell/Comparing_Open_Closed_Stances/Comparing_Open_Closed_Stances.html

Switching gears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKjYHwbZns&NR=1

is worth watching as well-the middle part

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

[uspta990770809]

When is the weight transfer

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow

Carrerakent, I'm not advocating moving the weight forward during the forward stroke. I think 90 to 95% of the weight transfer(if there is one...in a square stance) has to take place as the downward action of the racket is completed and before the head starts its true forward motion. I'm afraid I have to study a little further what you are saying about the hip-ball distance, but certainly, I want my students hitting the ball further in front, but with some respect for the laws of diminishing returns at the limits.

PS. As I was hitting balls on the driving range yesterday, I was thinking about your arguments for increased distance and the thought that you use longer clubs to hit the ball farther. Of course, the ball is just sitting there.

don