Dog Pat Part 2

[tcuk]

10splayer, Now that is a very interesting and you've explained it well. I've re-watched the video clips and see exactly what you mean. God, I'm blind sometimes! Amazing how I can watch something a 100 times yet not work it out.

I'll put your theories to the test as soon as G returns.

[uspta990770809]

Posting Amber's update

As Airforce and Don have pointed out, the arm stalls as the loop bottoms out. Couldn't agree more. Also, as Don points out, "the forearm is moving in the wrong direction as it nears the bottom of the swing". Although he explains this more eloquently than I do, this has always been my position.

In my opinion, this is why the arm stalls.

As I've mentioned before, with the stronger grips, I see the backswing as nothing more than a closed to open system. the racquet is going to naturally close somewhat in the backswing, (this effect can be enhanced by pronating the forearm slightly) This requires a counter rotation (external rotation of upper arm, and supination of the forearm) to open up the racquet face and set up the the hitting arm structure. Most all forehands, work this way in varying degrees. At least, from what I've seen.

Others may disagree, but I believe this supination is what turns the downward momentum of the backswing into a forward motion. In other words, this is what changes the direction of the swing. As such, in terms of fluidity, the timing of this move is critical. in the boys case, he simply is not reversing the forearm soon enough, and the arm drags or stalls. In fact he's continuing to close the face even more, even as the arm should be rotating towards a supine position.

Tcuk, stole this drill from Doug King, I think, and believe it is applicable in this situation.. Have G hold a plastic cup half filled with water as if he has arrived at the top of the backswing. As he starts to lower the cup, and near the bottom of the downswing, have him spill the water backwards, which will simulate a supinating move. (exactly opposite of the way he is currently rotating his forearm)

Have him take the empty cup, and again move up to the top of the backswing with his hand on top, and the closed end of the cup facing forward. have him again lower the cup, and then rotate the cup so the open end is facing forward as he nears the bottom of the loop. Show him how when he "flips the cup" the elbow draws in and starts to move forward or "lead" even as the hand is rotated back.

Shadow swing with the racquet using the same principle. Racquet face partially, or fully closed at the top of the backswing. Lower the hitting structure, and then have him rotate the butt cap toward the right net post, as he gets close to the bottom of the downswing. Again show him how the elbow has moved from the back of the structure to the front of the structure. Have him take note of how the racquet head has rotated back and down. I would have him work on this manually until he gets the feel of these critical positons.

I really hope this helps Tcuk.


P.S. The Angela's asteroids excersice is so money. Have G do this for 10 min every practice, and see if he doesn't quickly realize how to use momentum and the weight of the racquet head to aid in the redirection of the swing.

I love the drill with the cup. And I'm so glad to hear someone actually tried and appreciates "Angela's Asteroids". Now let's see if I can attach these files. They are so big in the 210FPS mode.

I'll first try to attach the updates of the two views John used in the article, and then the actual original files he used. You can look at them side by side in QuickTime.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference when you look at the video, but the stroke is definitely changeing. So that tells me a very small difference in what we see in the high speed video can make a big change in the effectiveness of the stroke. It's a long way from where I want it, but extension through the ball is much better and she is starting to get below the ball a little better. The dog pat is only marginally reduced if at all, but she thinks she has changed it a lot. I do think the face is squareing up a little sooner. CK would be pleased to see the contact is more in front and the arm somewhat more extended. I just want to see the elimination of the shortening and bending as she starts to swing forward.

So let's see if I can load it. I got the clips all just under 5MB, but that is still a lot.

They should load by the MaxFilesize limits, but I can't get anything in. Sorry, it will have to wait until John gets free from Cincy.
don
PS I'll try to learn how to upload the files to youtube. I don't think it's that hard, but I've never done it.

[10splayer]

10splayer, Now that is a very interesting and you've explained it well. I've re-watched the video clips and see exactly what you mean. God, I'm blind sometimes! Amazing how I can watch something a 100 times yet not work it out.

I'll put your theories to the test as soon as G returns.

Well, thanks, but I wouldn't get too excited just yet. I may be wrong about this. And it wouldn't be the first time. Just my opinion.

Taught awhile now. And one characteristic I've found in all the great pro's i've had the priviledge to work with, is a desire and work ethic to do the very best for there clients. You have this!

I know G will be fine.

[airforce1]

tcuk, did you get my pm?

[tcuk]

I got your PM, Airforce. Thanks for that and I'll PM you soon.

Don, I had to learn to use youtube to post clips. It's very easy. Just sign up for an account and upload.

[uspta146749877]

using youtube is a better bet

I love the drill with the cup. And I'm so glad to hear someone actually tried and appreciates "Angela's Asteroids". Now let's see if I can attach these files. They are so big in the 210FPS mode.

I'll first try to attach the updates of the two views John used in the article, and then the actual original files he used. You can look at them side by side in QuickTime.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference when you look at the video, but the stroke is definitely changeing. So that tells me a very small difference in what we see in the high speed video can make a big change in the effectiveness of the stroke. It's a long way from where I want it, but extension through the ball is much better and she is starting to get below the ball a little better. The dog pat is only marginally reduced if at all, but she thinks she has changed it a lot. I do think the face is squareing up a little sooner. CK would be pleased to see the contact is more in front and the arm somewhat more extended. I just want to see the elimination of the shortening and bending as she starts to swing forward.

So let's see if I can load it. I got the clips all just under 5MB, but that is still a lot.

They should load by the MaxFilesize limits, but I can't get anything in. Sorry, it will have to wait until John gets free from Cincy.
don
PS I'll try to learn how to upload the files to youtube. I don't think it's that hard, but I've never done it.

using youtube is a better bet

[uspta990770809]

Amber on youtube

Okay. I think I got it up.
Here are 2 of the clips John used in the "Your Strokes" article last month cut to the part he included and 2 more clips of the same views taken this last Tuesday.

On youtube, the tags are:

AP FhRear 4 28 09cut
AP FhDS HS 5 12 09cut
AP Fh Rear HS 8 18 09cut
AP FhDS HS 8 18 09cut

the straight links are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVOiCGEWc3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pXOdkHTq0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3V5htOCxDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

Hope that works. Not that bad at all... if I did it right!
don

[uspta990770809]

Notes on the youtube clips

This does a great job of showing the increased extension and it is really easy. But I like to have the ability to go through frame by frame and especially side by side in Quicktime or in a piece of software I have for Windows called V1Home ($40 to do side by side synchronised playback, but only in Windows). I like the fact we can download TP's clips and put them into our own side by side analysis and comparison.

If someone knows how I can go frame by frame in youtube (besides trying to stop and start the player), please post it.

But it is a great resoursce for putting stuff up. And I have a lot of video of my students. Some great before and afters.
don

[tcuk]

Amber

Don,

Thanks for the clips and letting me know where you are with Amber to date. I can see significant improvement.

Amber's dog pat was more extreme than G's and you had further to go to achieve correction. She was almost shoving the ball. They now seem in a similar position, but Amber is perhaps in her hitting position sooner. I need to download your clips from youtube somehow and make a side-by-side comparision.

They both still have that awkward transition from backward to forward swing.

When G comes back I'm going to compile all the workable ideas I've received from other coaches on Tennisplayer and set about trying to resolve the problem. Extreme dog pats are very limiting to players in given situations and need changing.

I'll be in touch and will post clips...any breakthroughs and you'll be the first to know.

[uspta146749877]

Stance

This does a great job of showing the increased extension and it is really easy. But I like to have the ability to go through frame by frame and especially side by side in Quicktime or in a piece of software I have for Windows called V1Home ($40 to do side by side synchronised playback, but only in Windows). I like the fact we can download TP's clips and put them into our own side by side analysis and comparison.

If someone knows how I can go frame by frame in youtube (besides trying to stop and start the player), please post it.

But it is a great resoursce for putting stuff up. And I have a lot of video of my students. Some great before and afters.
don

Don,
a question about the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

do you plan to work on stance a bit in future?

[uspta146749877]

Frame by frame

This does a great job of showing the increased extension and it is really easy. But I like to have the ability to go through frame by frame and especially side by side in Quicktime or in a piece of software I have for Windows called V1Home ($40 to do side by side synchronised playback, but only in Windows). I like the fact we can download TP's clips and put them into our own side by side analysis and comparison.

If someone knows how I can go frame by frame in youtube (besides trying to stop and start the player), please post it.

But it is a great resoursce for putting stuff up. And I have a lot of video of my students. Some great before and afters.
don

I am hoping that if John would help deposit videos
on www.tennisplayer.net
we will be able to open Quicktime on a video and go frame by frame

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

[uspta990770809]

The stance

Don,
a question about the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

do you plan to work on stance a bit in future?

Julian,
We've been focused on the full swing through the ball and getting the face squared up a little sooner, but I actually like the stance she is using here. Not particularly pleased with the way the weight stayed back, but I like a stance a little open like that. I'll try to get the full clips up on youtube so you can see the full stroke in context.

What do you see?
don

[uspta990770809]

The context of those strokes

Julian,
We've been focused on the full swing through the ball and getting the face squared up a little sooner, but I actually like the stance she is using here. Not particularly pleased with the way the weight stayed back, but I like a stance a little open like that. I'll try to get the full clips up on youtube so you can see the full stroke in context.

What do you see?
don

I haven't been able to upload the full slomo clips (over 100MB), but I was able to get the 10 and 18MB regular speed full clips up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocH6xXf_3mQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZptrgbjNQw

Learned about youtube and Facebook today. Interesting. I have to figure out why it wouldn't load the larger files. Perhaps I need to go to Quicktime first, and then to youtube for the 210FPS footage. Tried with the raw AVI's and it worked for the smaller 30 FPS clips, but not for the bigger slomo files. Is it the size or the 210 FPS. Anyone know?

hope you enjoy the context of the stroke here.
don

[uspta990770809]

Amber's starting forehand, Feb 1

I finally got the video up of her "before" we started on Feb 1, 2009. No "dog pat", but she was swinging way around. The "dog pat" seems to have been a compensation for cutting that backswing down. I think it points to the fact that I need to get her back to getting the racket a little more inside before she swings forward. That is: she has the shaft of the racket pointed slightly to the rear deuce corner instead of straight back or slightly to the ad corner side as she drops the racket head down. Could this be a key to the problem?

don

the link is

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalTennisDC#play/all/uploads-all/0/VERu5UJmMU0

[tcuk]

Don,

I received the clips via email, thanks.

I see you have uploaded some clips in 'real time' too. It's nice to see these as well as the slow motion clips. The real life pace and racket speed is handy to see.