Dog Pat Part 2

[carrerakent]

Mr. O... amen on keeping the shoulder turn longer and delaying the opening.

[oliensis]

Carrera,
Here's an interesting question to ponder.

In the Federe '09 stroke archive, I've just gone through all the forehands, in the "center" section at:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html

and, honestly, I don't love what I see there, esp. compared to the earlier Federer stroke archive. Why? Because in the '09 archive he so often falls away from the ball as/after he hits it. In the earlier archive that happens some, but much more often his movement is into the ball, through the ball, and then back after the centifugal force of his swing has carried him forward and around.

Let's assume for the moment that you're right about Fed's motivations, that he would, if possible, just about always hit an extended/straight-arm forehand. And that part of his genius is being able to shift the axis of vertical rotation from right hip, to center, to left hip as a last-second adjustment in order to accomodate less-than-perfect spacing on his setup into the forehand...which shifting of axis allows him to hit the more extended forehand relatively more often.

Given that on a given shot he has moved too close to the ball and that he has to make a last-second adjustment to accomodate this "in reality" spacing he may have two choices: 1) shift the axis of rotation to the right hip and fall away from the shot w/out really getting his movement through the ball (as he does so often in '09) or 2) double bend the arm to adjust for being too close to the ball, but keep his movement through the ball.

Obviously, in your view, neither is optimal, as he "should" have gauged the incoming ball better. But tennis is a game in which how one adjusts to sub-optimal situations is probably more important than how one performs optimally. In my view, "it depends" (on innumerable factors).

Wondering whether you think adjustment #1 above is always or almost always preferable to adjustment #2.

[tcuk]

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA

How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.

[oliensis]

Nice forehand!
The kid must be really talented to be able to feel where the racket face is using a continental grip after having grooved a SW grip. It would take me a long time to re-groove my old '70s continental grip after switching to SW when I started playing again in the '90s.

I like his backswing, and I think the sync-ing of when he opens his left side is better.
When you go back to his SW grip it will be interesting to see if he goes back to opening his left side early. (That seems like it's eased up in this clip.)

On a related subject, Have you guys seen this?

http://www.tennis-in-the-zone.com/Step-1.html

I've found it constructive in terms of establishing clear contact points especially.

One more thing: Had my 14-yr old daughter on the court this week. She played middle-school tennis last year. Will be a freshman this year. She spends more time in dance class than on the tennis court.

Shared the "contact point" image w/ her and it was moderately helpful. But when I worked w/ her on getting the left arm across the line of the ball and then "counter-rotating" in sync, she began hitting her forehand w/ some real authority for the first time.

[uspta146749877]

Continental grip

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA

How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.

Hi,
you should get somehow John Yandell inro this discussion quicker.
For the record i believe continental is NOT a solution even for a month-
it comes with a long painful experience.
I wish I am wrong about the continental grip.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

[carrerakent]

Mr. O,

how about I respond in the "double bend" thread since this related and that way tcuk can stay on track with this thread?

[carrerakent]

On a related subject, Have you guys seen this?

http://www.tennis-in-the-zone.com/Step-1.html

I've found it constructive in terms of establishing clear contact points especially.

Very interesting. That is very similar to the method my coach uses. He teaches that the first phase of learning as a tennis player is to be a goalie, not a racket swinger or ball striker. And the part about basically giving tasks that "trick" the player into shifting to what he calls parallel mode, we see it as left brain vs right brain function.

[airforce1]

Hi,

For the record i believe continental is NOT a solution even for a month-

I wish I am wrong about the continental grip.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

I agree with the above parts. Yes, the racket face never hits certain points now, but it is what the hand and arm are doing that is important, right??
which did not really change, right?

continental will most likely lead to all kind of compensations for a hard hitter like this kid.

[carrerakent]

I agree with the above parts. Yes, the racket face never hits certain points now, but it is what the hand and arm are doing that is important, right??
which did not really change, right?

continental will most likely lead to all kind of compensations for a hard hitter like this kid.

i totally agree with airforce1 about compensations. would hate to see them start creeping up.

i think his first few videos were much more of a good basis for future success. he looked more natural for his body.

[uspta990770809]

Amber's progress

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA

How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.

We've been working once a week for about a month and we are starting to see some real progress in the shot. I'm still not happy about the presence of the "dog pat", but the racket is getting into hitting earlier and she is starting to hit through the ball with real pace. I'll try to get some video up here later today or tomorrow.
don

[carrerakent]

trust or not trust

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about.

tcuk, but how can these changes work if he's not more aware of where his contact point should be and what the ball is doing? forgive me if i already said this, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

try this if you want: have a player stand at the other baseline. feed a ball from your baseline and have the player put his racket where he/she thinks contact should be for the ball that is in flight to them as quickly as possible. (this is designed of course to get them to recognize the velocity, trajectory, and spin of the ball early on.)

tell the student that once he/she determines the contact point they cannot move their racket, but are to let it simply hit the strings or miss. 100% of your experienced tennis player students will move the racket at the last second if they perceive they read it wrong originally. a total beginner will probably not move their racket.

what is my point? tennis players are taught to adjust at the last second and as most everyone on here advocates that bending the arm in is an okay adjustment, tennis players are not able to read balls as well...because they can always just adjust at that last second. i would think that accuracy, power and spin are surely sacrificed with last second adjustments whether they are in shortening the arm or lengthening it.

if you use this drill and keep encouraging them to read as early as possible and trust their decision, but mostly, they HAVE TO let the ball miss the racket if they are wrong. i think you will be impressed over time with how quickly they start seeing the ball better, bending their arm much less and every aspect of their game will improve.

[tcuk]

Continental

I understand everyone's concerns about a temporary switch to the continental grip, but experimenting with the continental grip did reveal a lot about muscle memory. If you watch the clip again you'll see his arm fighting like mad to get in the dog pat position even though the grip won't allow it. It just highlights what coaches are up against with problems like this.

I can tell you for certain what the biggest problem is a coaching scenario like this: The student cannot feel/visualize what his arm/hand is doing when it's behind his body. He is convinced he is doing what is asked of him and can't believe his eyes when he sees the video playbacks. It's the transition point from backswing to forward swing that is the most difficult for him to visualize and carry out.

The kid is away for 10 days now. When he returns I'm going to drop feed him hundreds of balls with his racket drawn back ready and the racket face more open. This he can definitely do. Hopefully he will be able to incorporate it into his full swing over time.

I understand the preparation model laid out in the Amber Park model and have re-read the article. I feel Amber's problem is more severe; she tends to shove the ball. G's dog pat he can presently get away with at the moment (he wins lots of matches) and some coaches even suggest leave it be. I'm not so sure. I haven't seen a full dog pat used on the tour yet, has anyone?

carrerakent,

I understand the points you are making, but how is it going to resolve the dog pat. If I set up a perfect contact point by drop feeding a ball that racket still ends up in the dog position.

[carrerakent]

Tcuk, I think maybe it is not so important to eradicate this old swing, but more important to help him to learn to work on the areas where it gives him trouble. Then maybe the stroke may shape itself over time.

Tcuk,

I agree with airforce1 ...but it is accompanied with my belief that once he becomes aware of his contact point and doesn't bend the arm at the last second when he realizes he judged it wrong then you can shorten his back swing, so to speak, and get the racket face more behind the ball...meaning you can draw a straight line between the racket head, the ball, and the intended target. (but still getting even more shoulder turn to help with is lack of strength...that too should help things).That should tone down the dog pat as you call it and also eliminate the delay. i am sorry that i didn't explain my point on this better earlier. in part i realize more now in what you are trying to accomplish.

good luck

[tcuk]

Thanks for all your comments and observations, Carrerakent. You've certainly been a lively and active contributor to the Dog Pat threads.

It's been a very active thread and the help I've had from fellow coaches has been impressive. I've been insulted here and there too, but what can I expect when I put my work on show in a forum

As I mentioned earlier, my student is away for 10 days but as soon as he returns I will be getting back to work. I will be going all out to try get his racket face more where it should be. And yes a bit more space between him and ball wouldn't come amiss, Carrerakent.

It could be that the dog pat may prove too probelmatic to get rid off and the kid may have to live with it. As Airforce, Oliensis, Jperedo have all suggested if the worst comes to the worst we can try working round his current technique by helping him to deal with the type of balls he finds most tricky: wide balls and fast balls. He could perhaps learn to adapt in these areas.

Oddly enough, he hits high (slow) midcourt balls well with his dog pat technique - an asset in any standard of tennis.

I'm keen to find out how Don is getting on with Amber Park. He's about a month ahead of me, but Amber only sees Don once a week. I see G 3 to 4 times per week. I also have the option to place G in a completely 'closed coaching environment'.

I will post the conclusion of the Dog Pat - successful or otherwise - in a seperate thread in a month or two. I will upload clips too.

In the mean time, this thread remains open to all to contribute.

[10splayer]

As Airforce and Don have pointed out, the arm stalls, as the loop bottoms out. Couldn't agree more. Also, as Don points out, "the forearm is moving in the wrong direction as it nears the bottom of the swing". Although he explains this more eloquently than I did, this has always been my position.

In my opinion, this is why the arm stalls.

As I've mentioned before, with the stronger grips, I see the backswing as nothing more than a closed to open system. the racquet is going to naturally close somewhat in the backswing, (this effect can be enhanced by pronating the forearm slightly) This requires a counter rotation (external rotation of upper arm, and supination of the forearm) to open up the racquet face and set up the the hitting arm structure. Most all forehands, work this way in varying degrees. At least, from what I've seen.

Others may disagree, but I believe this supination is what turns the downward momentum of the backswing into a forward motion. In other words, this is what helps change the direction of the swing. As such, in terms of fluidity, the timing of this move is critical. in the boys case, he simply is not reversing the forearm soon enough, and the arm drags or stalls. In fact he's continuing to close the face even more, even as the arm should be rotating towards a supine position.

Tcuk, stole this drill from Doug King, I think, and believe it is applicable in this situation.. Have G hold a plastic cup half filled with water as if he has arrived at the top of the backswing. As he starts to lower the cup, and near the bottom of the downswing, have him spill the water backwards, which will simulate a supinating move. (exactly opposite of the way he is currently rotating his forearm)

Have him take the empty cup, and again move up to the top of the backswing with his hand on top, and the closed end of the cup facing forward. have him again lower the cup, palm down, and then rotate the cup so the open end is facing forward as he nears the bottom of the loop. Show him how when he "flips the cup" the elbow draws in and starts to move forward or "lead" even as the hand is rotated back.

Shadow swing with the racquet using the same principle. Racquet face partially, or fully closed at the top of the backswing. Lower the hitting structure, and then have him rotate the butt cap toward the right net post, as he gets close to the bottom of the downswing. Again show him how the elbow has moved from the back of the structure to the front of the structure. Have him take note of how the racquet head has rotated back and down. I would have him work on this manually until he gets the feel of these critical positons.

I really hope this helps Tcuk.


P.S. The Angela's asteroids excercise is so money. Have G do this for 10 min every practice, and see if he doesn't quickly realize how to use momentum and the weight of the racquet head to aid in the redirection of the swing.