What is the best forehand grip for a 5 year old?

[shiuey]

Dear Tennis Player Coaches.

I would like to get the comments of an experienced coach for young children.

I have been reading the sections about how to teach children forehands from Lansdorp and Macci. I think that they both agree that an Eastern forehand is the best grip to use when starting out so that the child learns to drive through the ball.

Recently, I was speaking to a coach in my area that teaches a lot of children including young children. His opinion was that the Eastern forehand is too difficult for most young children to learn and that it might predispose to injuries like tennis elbow. He recommended a semi-western grip instead.

Would an experienced coach of young children please comment on the above statements.

Thanks.

[carrerakent]

the real answer is the grip that allows a natural stroke. is that eastern, semi-western...impossible to answer without seeing a kids natural swing path. i teach all of my kids how to swing to an extended arm, shoulder turned, natural contact point and NEVER teach grip.

if they are swinging extended and not guiding the ball with their wrist or arm, then they will naturally figure out what grip to use. they won't even know they changed their grip to accommodate the natural swing path.

i do not think there is anything worse than all of these so called great coaches teaching specific grips and stances that cause bad alignment and forced stroke production. that is evidence that they do not know anything about "natural" body mechanics.

here's a test: have your kids swing at a ball with their open palm. they will swing with a extended arm mostly unless they've already been conditioned to bend and search for the ball with their arm and hand. also, after several swings have them stop at contact with their palm open...put a racket in their hand where the face is facing the target. that's the answer to your grip question. anything else will cause all kinds of unnatural tendencies. look at some of macci's kids. they look like contortionists trying to hit a ball.

[johnyandell]

I disagree with these statements. If you let kids go completely natural on the grips and they are young, competing and hitting high balls, they often tend to slide underneath to the point of no return.

Our friend above loves the straight arm forehand, and it can be great, but I doubt it's accurate to say that everyone who hits double bend, including DelPotro in this forum this month, was somehow taught that or that it inevtiably leads to guiding the ball and manipulation with the arm and the wrist.

Aggasi's dad just set up the ball machine and let him figure it out. Sampras and Lindsay were taught by Lansdorp but I know for a fact he never teaches specific arm structures. Also think if you look at Rick's kids, like all kids, you can sometimes find flaws or areas of improvements, but it's not accurate to disparage them.

[carrerakent]

I disagree with these statements. If you let kids go completely natural on the grips and they are young, competing and hitting high balls, they often tend to slide underneath to the point of no return.

Our friend above loves the straight arm forehand, and it can be great, but I doubt it's accurate to say that everyone who hits double bend, including DelPotro in this forum this month, was somehow taught that or that it inevtiably leads to guiding the ball and manipulation with the arm and the wrist.

Aggasi's dad just set up the ball machine and let him figure it out. Sampras and Lindsay were taught by Lansdorp but I know for a fact he never teaches specific arm structures. Also think if you look at Rick's kids, like all kids, you can sometimes find flaws or areas of improvements, but it's not accurate to disparage them.

Mr. Yandell, I have to admit I came on the scene making scathing remarks about the things I read on this website and I should not have. I don't say these things to be mean, and I actually do not intend to offend, but sometimes I know I do because I am passionate about this stuff.

I DO NOT advocate the straight arm forehand! As I stated in my above post, I encourage natural biomechanics and the end result will always be a straight arm unless the player decides to shorten the muscles because they are too close to the ball or they want to manipulate the ball without proper set up. There is a huge difference in what you guys understand about straight arm forehands and what I am trying to HELP you understand.

Please do this yourself...go out and spin in a circle and let your arms totally relax. your arms, especially the one weighted with a tennis racket will straighten with absolutely no muscle contraction. It's just physics. Now, do it again and after your arm is straight, bend the arm...say to a "double bend" forearm position. by doing that you just slowed down the racket head. didn't you? you just manipulated the racket with a shortened muscle group. the exact reason that so many top women choke in big matches. their short muscle group shortens when they get nervous. safina, ivanovic...

Also, how many degrees of "bent" are there? especially with three joints (it should be called the triple bend forehand) because the shoulder, elbow and wrist joints are all closing away from centrifugal force. Now, answer this...how many degrees of straight are there. So, is it better to master one degree or infinite? answer is obvious...isnt' it?

So, with our physics test above, you have to admit that your statement that
"...I doubt it's accurate to say... leads to guiding the ball and manipulation with the arm and the wrist." Physics and muscle physiology proves that it is completely impossible to hit a ball with a double bend without guided manipulation. It is impossible!

There is a lot of talk on here about the kinetic chain...well, all i'm talking about is that same chain.

Now, about your comment on kids getting their hand under the racket...that will only happen if they are not taught properly about body alignment in relationship to the target, sweet spot path and backswing position based upon height of contact point, and where that back swing position should be.

Sure kids gravitate to the grip you refer to when hitting high balls...that is 100% the result of poor teaching and/or lack of their own understanding.

Any of my students that would try to use the grip that you refer to would have a racket face pointing straight at the ground on contact...thus framing the ball at best. Now, would they continue to use that grip since they were taught how to properly use their body and read and adjust to the height of the ball? Absolutely not.

This all goes back to my early comments...you guys don't know nearly as much as you think. Your statements prove it every single time. I'm not trying to be mr. right...i am basing everything on physics. physics is not wrong.

Most of you guys are still too caught up in the "old" mindset and traditional thinking about "hitting" a ball. You really need to look outside the box.

[oliensis]

Have a look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiqaAehf1VA

And tell me if you still think that a straight lever is the only way to deliver optimal power.

Do you think Mike Tyson can punch you harder w/ a straight arm than w/ a bent arm?
Is anyone's forehand bigger than Fernando Gonazalez's, which has a double bend?

Your notion of physics is beneath elementary.

[carrerakent]

test

huh???

[airforce1]

Are we really looking for what will give us the MOST power?
I think most any mature player can hit the ball really hard, good or bad form.
For me the idea is controllable power. Good form is what gives controllable power, right?.

[carrerakent]

Have a look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiqaAehf1VA

And tell me if you still think that a straight lever is the only way to deliver optimal power.

Do you think Mike Tyson can punch you harder w/ a straight arm than w/ a bent arm?
Is anyone's forehand bigger than Fernando Gonazalez's, which has a double bend?

Your notion of physics is beneath elementary.

Well mr oliensis, if you and mr. yandell were paying attention more closely you would read my posts explaining how i do not advocate a straight arm forehand, but a natural motion forehand. natural form will result in a straight arm by contact and max racket head speed for energy used. the kinetic chain as many are calling it is one where the chain allows the greatest increase in speed over the chain. federers racket head speed is far more duplicatable than nadals.

controlled power is exactly what we want! gonzales has to produce his racket head speed a manner than can breakdown, especially in tense situations. there's a reason his ranking is where it is. i'd say it just might be because he lacks "controlled power."

btw, mike tyson doesn't have a racket at the end of his arm. i guarantee you put a racket in your hand as heavy as his arm and fist and the racket swing in excess of 100 miles per hour will kill you. his punch will only knock you out. your understanding of my meaning of physics is the only thing that is elementary.

[ccrood]

FH grips for children

Starting a kid out with no grip structure is just plain wrong! Past lagging development of kids starting out with the wrong grip has led to staggered progress. I believe the eastern or semi-western is the way to go depending on the individual style and comfort level.

[oliensis]

Wow, Carrera can misunderstand more things at once than I thought possible.

You don't advocate a straight-arm forehand, but anyone who seeks a natural swing path will inevitably arrive at a straight-arm forehand...but you don't advocate it. Hair-splitting at its least appealing. (We want Iraq to be a democracy, but we won't let them elect an Islamic extremist regime, even if the people want it!)

Clue me in. What's it like to know more than Little Bill Johnston, Bill Tilden, Don Budge, Jack Kramer, Pancho Gonzalez, Bjorn Borg, Ivan Lendl, Andre Agassi, & Pete Sampras, just to name a few great double-bend forehands...(not to mention a large percentage of Federer's)?

These guys have done pretty well with sub-optimal understandings of the immutable laws of physics, which you divine by spinning around in a circle.

Every once in a while you make a decent comment, but talking with you is like dating a crazy girl. It ain't worth the occasional satisfaction. And your arrogance is off-putting in the extreme.

[tcuk]

IMO,the best grip for a young kid starting out is an eastern grip for the forehand. A continental works best for the backhand and backhand volley if they can manage it.

For serve and for the forehand volley use an eastern grip to begin with, not a continental grip. Most youngsters can't manage the continental grip for the serve or the volley until they get a little older.

Grips tend to start shifting by themselves as children play more. Watch out for the full western. Once a child inches their way to a full western forehand grip it is extermely hard to reverse it. The full western forehand grip tends only to suit a minority of players, in my experience.

Hope this helps.

[carrerakent]

Wow, Carrera can misunderstand more things at once than I thought possible.

You don't advocate a straight-arm forehand, but anyone who seeks a natural swing path will inevitably arrive at a straight-arm forehand...but you don't advocate it. Hair-splitting at its least appealing. (We want Iraq to be a democracy, but we won't let them elect an Islamic extremist regime, even if the people want it!)

Clue me in. What's it like to know more than Little Bill Johnston, Bill Tilden, Don Budge, Jack Kramer, Pancho Gonzalez, Bjorn Borg, Ivan Lendl, Andre Agassi, & Pete Sampras, just to name a few great double-bend forehands...(not to mention a large percentage of Federer's)?

These guys have done pretty well with sub-optimal understandings of the immutable laws of physics, which you divine by spinning around in a circle.

Every once in a while you make a decent comment, but talking with you is like dating a crazy girl. It ain't worth the occasional satisfaction. And your arrogance is off-putting in the extreme.

Mr. O...

I think I must not be doing a very good job of explaining my points of view or we wouldn't keep hashing this stuff, surely.

A straight arm forehand as the intent would lead to worse results than the double bend because the natural biomechanics are not being used and one would just "pull" a straight arm through the contact point. i've said myself several times that the result naturally will be a straight arm contact if one used a method like Federer's, (i can't believe i'm STILL trying to explain myself on this)

Federer's arm only bends for contact when he is too close to the ball or adjusting at the last second to something he didn't read. again, i thought i had explained the split second adjustments that are the exception. i guess i did that in a thread that you didn't read. Give Federer time to set up and he will NEVER hit a ball with bend in his arm. I don't think Nadal would either.

Name one athlete in history that was great at his/her sport that was at least as good a coach. I don't think there is one...so to assume that Sampras or Federer or anyone else you mentioned understands why they do what they do is pretty silly really. No offense intended. But great athletes are the worst coaches because of their lack of understanding and even worse ability to relay it to others. if you said i was a better coach than sampras, i wouldn't even consider it a compliment.

I think part of the problem is that arrogance and argumentativeness comes across in text way too easily. if we were in person we would probably have great conversations for hours on end.

[ccrood]

it's the grip we are talking about here...car I guess doesn't have a definte opinion as to what grip a 5 year old should use

[carrerakent]

the real answer is the grip that allows a natural stroke. is that eastern, semi-western...impossible to answer without seeing a kids natural swing path. i teach all of my kids how to swing to an extended arm, shoulder turned, natural contact point and NEVER teach grip.

put a racket in their hand where the face is facing the target. that's the answer to your grip question. anything else will cause all kinds of unnatural tendencies. look at some of macci's kids. they look like contortionists trying to hit a ball.

ccrood...the answer is in my original posts on this topic. the result will present it self if the rest of the body is set up/taught properly. i think making a kid have a certain grip is a premature mistake if the other pieces aren't in place, because every human being will start manipulating the wrong muscles to make their shots do what they want if they are making mistakes in balance, position to ball, timing, etc.

i have found with myself and with most of my students (and not because I like federer's game) but the grips we end up with are almost just like Feds on the forehand. i again i think that is a result of us attempting the same natural swing path and being a full arms extension and racket distance from the contact point on all forehands. (hmmm...wonder what critiques that will bring?)

ccrood, does that answer your question? you know the old adage, don't put the cart before the horse.