Sharapova's new serve

[hughof]

I was watching her play last weekend and listening to Cliff Drysdale's analysis of her new service form, which includes an abbreviated takeback. CD says that the abbreviated windup was adopted to reduce stress on her recently repaired shoulder.

The other analysts basically felt like the takeback is the least stressful part of the serve, and wondered why such a change would help.

To paraphrase CD, "I hate to beat you folks up, but this is the way Roddick serves".... As if an abbreviated takeback is an unquestionable advantage, no matter what. (And ignoring the fact that no one else approaches Roddick's degree of success copying his form)

It sure looks to me like she is struggling with it...her timing is off, and she's double-faulting constantly. Seems like she has more topspin than she used to, but has lost considerable pace on her fastest serves.

Does anyone have any background on what Drysdale is talking about?

[airforce1]

Awe, come on,

if you don't like Johnny Mac, who do you like as an announcer?

[carrerakent]

Awe, come on,

if you don't like Johnny Mac, who do you like as an announcer?

cahilll and agassi. when agassi was commentating for the us open one night, i think last year, i thought to myself, now, everything he says makes total sense and he is very aware of stuff at a higher level than all of the other player/commentators.

[airforce1]

I agree Agassi was excellent, but doesn't do this regularly.
I like J Mac better than Cahill, but enjoy them both.
I must admit I like CD too.
Not crazy about P Mac, the ESPN guy, or Mary C, in fact I think Mary is clearly the worst!

[EdWeiss]

Best Announcers

I agree that Agassi when he done analysis is excellent. My favorite regular is Jimmy Arias -very knowledgeable. Doug Adler on the Tennis Channel is pretty good - although he did not play at the ATP tour level, if memory serves me he played for USC and has gained some worthwhile knowledge through the years and obviously has carefully studied the pro game. Justin G. says some worthwhile things but sometimes, IMO, gets a little too wrapped up into himself. Mary Carillo is bright, interesting and funny but maybe has come to like to hear herself talk a little bit too much. To me J. Mac blows too hot and cold on players during the match - if a player wins a few games he is all good and then we he loses a few games he is all bad. On the other hand, I think the average fan finds him entertaining and that counts for something.

[airforce1]

To me J. Mac blows too hot and cold on players during the match - if a player wins a few games he is all good and then we he loses a few games he is all bad. On the other hand, I think the average fan finds him entertaining and that counts for something.

Good point about J mac going so hot and cold at times.

[jeffreycounts]

glad someone mentioned this. i wanted to call pam shriver and tell her how much of an idiot she is. just because someone has tennis trophies they think they know something. she sure doesn't.

the reason for the abbreviated take back from a biomechanic perspective is to get the hitting arm into the "safe" and cocked position early enough that it does not lag behind during the later part of the service motion.

(apparently landsdorf didn't teach sharapova how to serve...probably not sampras either) any way, i digress....

when the arm lags behind in the motion the server puts extra stress on the rotator cuff muscles because the shoulder gets ahead of the upper arm and during the stretch phase of the muscle the server contracts the muscle at eh same time. waalaa..recipe for disaster.

the abbreviated motion should get sharapova to a "safe" and effective position, but as some may have seen with video of her and Landsdorf, she doesn't listen too well.

it's a same that she has such pathetic strokes all over the board. can we imagine how good she would be if she had justine henin's strokes. noone would touch her. but instead, she's gone mental because she has been taught a technique requiring control.

anyhow...please don't listen to cliff drysdale, pam shriver, and especially the mcenroe brothers...although john did say something intelligent once...can't remember what though...

This is great stuff. Pam Shriver is an idiot. Maria Sharapova has pathetic strokes, Robert Lansdorp is really "Lansdorf". John McEnroe is unintelligent along with his brother.

Even if they were all morons, how are your credentials better than Pam Shriver's number one ranking in the world and 112 titles??

Are you for real or just trying to be funny?

[uspta990770809]

Sharapova's rhythm

I was watching her play last weekend and listening to Cliff Drysdale's analysis of her new service form, which includes an abbreviated takeback. CD says that the abbreviated windup was adopted to reduce stress on her recently repaired shoulder.

The other analysts basically felt like the takeback is the least stressful part of the serve, and wondered why such a change would help.

To paraphrase CD, "I hate to beat you folks up, but this is the way Roddick serves".... As if an abbreviated takeback is an unquestionable advantage, no matter what. (And ignoring the fact that no one else approaches Roddick's degree of success copying his form)

It sure looks to me like she is struggling with it...her timing is off, and she's double-faulting constantly. Seems like she has more topspin than she used to, but has lost considerable pace on her fastest serves.

Does anyone have any background on what Drysdale is talking about?

About Sharapova's serve: Please see my post on this thread:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1012&page=2

It's all about the rhythm of the toss and the rock.
don brosseau

[uspta990770809]

Hoping for some response

I insist my students learn to toss and catch in rhythm over and over almost metronomically. In fact, I have them count: 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, hands down, hands up, weight back, weight forward, ... tossing and catching the ball repeatedly. Obviously, when they really go after the serve the ball is too far forward to catch and retrace the motion back to the beginning, but it can be effectively practiced just short of that. In fact, I make them do drills like toss and catch, toss and hit, toss and catch, toss and hit in sequence with two balls without stopping while maintaining the rhythm. If they can do this, then there is a chance they may be able to maintain their rhythm when they go up to hit the ball with match pressure. This is the element that is missing in the serves of Safina, Sharapova and Ivanovic. Especially, in Sharapova; she used to have a nice rhythm where the rock synchronised with her toss. I don't like the short motion, but if you do use it, you have to maintain the rhythm of the rock and the toss. If you look at her old serve on this site, you'll see her toss synchronises with her rock. But if you watch her serve now, her toss motion is so abbreviated that it is totally unrelated to her rock and weight transfer and she can't repeat it under pressure. There is little or no relationship between her rock and her toss now. I was really surprised to hear Lansdorp say he didn't know what was up with her serve. To me, that lack of coordination and synchronisation of the toss and rock is at the core of the problem with her loss of feel for what used to be a pretty good service motion.

Above, is part of the post I put up and referred to just above, but it didn't catch anyone's attention here. I'm really curious if anyone else sees it the same way. I am really convinced this is the element that is missing in so many of these serves that go wrong.

don

[hughof]

Sharapova's rhythm

don, I think you're on to something with the rhythm observation.

The other thing I wonder is if she has lost depth on her racquet drop from the combination of surgery and the short takeback.

[uspta990770809]

Reduced power?

don, I think you're on to something with the rhythm observation.

The other thing I wonder is if she has lost depth on her racquet drop from the combination of surgery and the short takeback.

I managed to record some isolated shots of her serve last night and I want to see how those look. Obviously, the shots in the stroke archive are her old motion.

But I don't think the problem is really with her speed and power. She's still hitting some big serves. It's just that she is hitting so many doubles. I think she is totally lost in that motion and that is what I am getting at.

Glad to see someone finally comment on my post.

Does anyone else see it this way.

don

[uspta3577514567]

commentary and vid

Here is some of the commentary between the two on her serve.. See at the 1:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWVjA5zS2k

[uspta990770809]

The racket drop is fine

Here is some of the commentary between the two on her serve.. See at the 1:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWVjA5zS2k

Also, HUGHOF's comment:
The other thing I wonder is if she has lost depth on her racquet drop from the combination of surgery and the short takeback.


When you look at the slomo at 1:30 and also again at 3:30, you can see there is nothing wrong with her drop. It's not about the mechanics of the strike; it's about her feel and ability to be consistent and hit a deep second serve.

And I think her rhythm is a little better than it was in LA, but I still feel all these people are missing the fundamental connection between the rock and the toss that together create the "rhythm" of the serve. She has 2 different rhythms trying to coexist. The human animal is a wonderful machine and can do amazing things (especially when confidence is high), but there is no question it is more complicated to do what she (and you could substitute Safina or Ivanovic just as well here) is trying to do with those 2 separate rhythms. Also, the shorter the length of the motion of the tossing hand, the more difficult to be accurate and consistent with it. Just think of the accuracy of rifles vs. pistols. The length of the barrel is for accuracy.

I still don't hear any "accepted" voices saying these things on the broadcasts. We know the toss to the right doesn't work. That's obvious. But getting rhythm and consistency on the toss, especially when fatigue or pressure is involved is a whole different story

don

[gsheiner]

Don,

I really think you're on to something with your emphasis on rhythm. I've experimented with many motions like many club players but find that I often serve best when I just get the weight back, hands down and then say to myself "let's go". What follows then is a coordinated, rhythmic, weight transfer,toss, and hit without any stop.

I know you prefer a rock first, bit I find you can also get good rhythm starting back and just letting it all flow.

As to the new Roddick like serves of Dementiova and Sharapova, I wonder if you get as much disguise and as good as slice as the traditional serve such as Serena hits. It seems to me that the traditional service motion makes it easier to get trunk rotation and to have a swing plane that is a little more left to right allowing for a more natural, better disguised slice.

So, although Roddick serves at 140, wouldn't players be better off serving like Fed, Sampras, or Mac at 120 with a great slice and great disguise?

[airforce1]

don,
at 0:29 on that clip, Mary Jo says that she still does not have her rhythm or timing on her serve.