Dog Pat Technique

[carrerakent]

10s, you're right. If he has time he can produce a bazooka of a shot relative to his size and body weight. Under pressure, he makes mistakes...also on wide balls he experiences problems.

The dog pat seems to cut his loop short. He prepares well, goes into his backswing, but flattens the racket face at the critical point as he commences the forward swing. The bottom of the loop somehow doesn't happen.

Lots of good stuff here. I need to clarify that kinetic chain is more of what i am talking about, but was thinking in terms of from the shoulder to the wrist as the long lever.

Someone said that his double bend is limited because of what he is doing. Hallelujah! Limit that double bend so that we can eradicate it from tennis...hopefully. talk about something that destroys the kinetic chain.

Tcuk you talk about him having trouble on wide balls...that further makes me question his ability to know where his contact point should be. As soon as someone is rushed and makes a mistake or on a wide ball... I know that they didn't read the ball properly and/or didn't make the rational decision of what shot to hit....block vs. only forward swing, vs abbreviated swing and where the contact point should be to their body.

Like many others I still fail to see why you think the flat racket at the back of the loop is a problem. How can it be? Go tell Fed to stop doing that too and I wonder what he would say.

Also someone said to watch out before trying to fix things in kids...i think his tendencies are more correct that most guys that are making a living on tour. a little tweaking, gettting him to actually look at the ball and read the ball and shorten the distance around the body it appears to be traveling.

We could start another thread on watching the ball and how does one do that.

I personally would teach him more about getting the sweet spot behind the ball than making swing changes. The fact you made that he sometimes doesn't drop the racket face below the ball, if he knows his intent, could be a good thing by design. I'm not going on enough here to fully understand what he's doing on those shots.

[tcuk]

I'm getting a lot of useful input on this thread. It's easily my most productive so far.

The clip shows the essence of the boy's forehand on a typical shot. What it can't show is what happens to the shot when under pressure. 10splayer and Airforce seem to be grasping my kid's problem well.

The crux of the problem, for those who look carefully, is the racket flattens out to a dog pat very late in the swing, just at the transition to forward swing. And as I've said before it does more than flatten out - the front edge of the racket tilts slightly towards the ground for a split second. Toggle thru the clip slowly and you'll spot it.

(Yes, I know about Djorkovic...but his funny tilt is at the beginning of the backswing, not the end, so not critical (more style than technique).).

The problem for the kid is the movement from backswing to forward swing is therefore a little complex and unsmooth, he can't cope with fast balls. If he gets nervous the problem gets even worse.

I take carrakent's point about being too close. He does get too close on some shots.

I need to make the transition smoother via a loop at the bottom of the swing and try and realign the racket face. Not an easy job, but the kid is unswervingly dedicated - which I'm trying to use every resource to help him.

Anyone know how the hell I'm going to stop that extreme dog pat. He can open the racket face 30 degrees easily off a drop fed ball - or from one-ball-at-a-time basket feeds (with racket already drawn back). But when we try to rally he can't go from thru the transition from backswing to forward swing without doing the dog pat.

[carrerakent]

tcuk...have you considered that the back/dog pat part of the swing is quite a ways from his body...being that he's young maybe that distance prevents some acceleration forward. either way i would get that less extreme behind him.

i emphasize with all of my kids to put the sweet spot behind the contact point only. i tell them you can do anything you want later, but right now its critical for your body to develop the feeling of the racket not wasting space or energy and thus not getting behind the contact path. i have them put the sweet spot behind the contact point with the off hand as well.

that has cut out everyone's weak, long, take backs.

[jperedo]

For what it's worth, here's a hacker's analysis.

Did a comparison of Verdasco and your student, at the momemt immediately before they begin rotating their torso.
I can thing of three things which might cause your student's racquet edge to point further than Verdasco's -

1.upper arm has internally rotated further
2.forearm has internally rotated further (ie. pronated further)
3.your student has a more extreme grip

My guess is it's the forearm pronating too far (#2), based on looking at the position of the thumb relative to the "inside" of the elbow. Also the top of your student's hitting hand is more visible. The upper arm position looks the same. Not sure about the grip.
In my opinion there really isn't much difference in the timing. Your student just seems to twist the racquet further during the takeback. Watch that they both "open up" the racquet (i.e. externally rotate the arms) when they rotate their torsos.

[uspta146749877]

Pictures imbedded in your posts

jperedo,
could you describe steps allowing you 2 put pictures into
your post?
thank you

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

[tcuk]

Jperedo, you're gem! Thank you for all the trouble you have taken. Now I'm absolutely convinced it would be in my student's best interest to adjust his racket face to slightly more open position.

Once again, thank you for the trouble you've taken to help.

Next I need to contact John to see why I can't seem to upload clips!

[jperedo]

Click on the paperclip to attach an image from your computer.

I use a screen capture program called "PicPick" to screencap video's.

[jperedo]

Jperedo, you're gem! Thank you for all the trouble you have taken. Now I'm absolutely convinced it would be in my student's best interest to adjust his racket face to slightly more open position.

Once again, thank you for the trouble you've taken to help.

Next I need to contact John to see why I can't seem to upload clips!

No problem, but if your boy ever makes top 10, i expect a royalty check

[10splayer]

No, au contraire (like the Russians say), you are so correct and it is no theory. I had seen it already but saw no need to mention it. You can see it more especially with beginning adults!? I think that Federer developed his FH in a way like this. So coaches beware! I want to say to all the coaches be very, very, very dedicated but be very, very, very, very, very, very educated first before you force caracteristics upon your pupils without knowing what you are doing. Maybe with all your dedication you are destroying the next Federer or Nadal or the next development in tennis.

I know where Carrakent stands on the issue, but are you suggesting that the double bend structure is arcaic.

[10splayer]

Jperedo, you're gem! Thank you for all the trouble you have taken. Now I'm absolutely convinced it would be in my student's best interest to adjust his racket face to slightly more open position.

Once again, thank you for the trouble you've taken to help.

Next I need to contact John to see why I can't seem to upload clips!

Absoulutely,I like to see the racquet face a little closed in the downswing (and it will tend to be with stronger grips), but, it does not have to be this closed, htis late in the downswing, in order to hit a big time forehand. This is irrefutable. The underlying issue, imo, is that he is unable to supinate the forearm (which rotates the racquet head back and down), and find the hitting arm structure soon enough, when pressed for time.

[uspta146749877]

A grip

Did a comparison of Verdasco and your student, at the momemt immediately before they begin rotating their torso.
I can thing of three things which might cause your student's racquet edge to point further than Verdasco's -

1.upper arm has internally rotated further
2.forearm has internally rotated further (ie. pronated further)
3.your student has a more extreme grip

My guess is it's the forearm pronating too far (#2), based on looking at the position of the thumb relative to the "inside" of the elbow. Also the top of your student's hitting hand is more visible. The upper arm position looks the same. Not sure about the grip.
In my opinion there really isn't much difference in the timing. Your student just seems to twist the racquet further during the takeback. Watch that they both "open up" the racquet (i.e. externally rotate the arms) when they rotate their torsos.

A grip looks from a far distance western.
A question is:would change to semi-westen would help with the issue?

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net

[tcuk]

The grip is not western, it's semi western. It looks more extreme because of the way he twists the wrist/forearm downwards as he goes into dog pat.

I could tweak the grip slightly to see if it makes a diffrence. Might try tomorrow and revert back to you via this thread.

NB: I'm very grateful for everyone's help with this dog pat issue. I'll post more remedy clips in due course so you can all assess progress should you wish.

[airforce1]

[QUOTE=tcuk;8928]
Once again, thank you for the trouble you've taken to help.

QUOTE]

Did you ck your PMs?

[tcuk]

[QUOTE=airforce1;8939]

Once again, thank you for the trouble you've taken to help.

QUOTE]

Did you ck your PMs?

Just sent you a message.

[uspta146749877]

Videos

Slow motion videos from you are much easier 2 analyze.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

https://www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

juliantennis@comcast.net