Dog Pat Technique

[tcuk]

I've uploaded a clip to Youtube as I couldn't seem to do it thru tennispalyer.

There are two clips: The problem, and the attempted remedy.

The boy, 12, has a extreme dog pat technique on his forehand. John Yandell agrees. The shot does work fairly well, however, so the dilemma is should I leave it or should I go thru the drawn out and difficult process of opening up his racket face 15 degrees.

If you look carefully the racket not only goes into a completely flat position at the end of the backswing, but for a split second it tilts even further so the edge of racket slightly points toward the ground.

I notice David Ferrer and Verdasco have very closed racket faces as they swing toward the ball. They are not totally closed though.

What are the drawbacks of leaving it how it is? Does anyone know?

I uploaded the clip and my attempted remedy for everyone's perusal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvECcXdskUc

The remedy. I get the student to start with the racket drawn back and with the racket face more open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

[carrerakent]

tcuk

i'm assuming you mean dog pat by the face of the racket "facing" the ground. there are about 100 clips of federer doing that. i am personally working to achieve that more in my own forehand.

by watching the first video of your student, the thing that slows the racket down to me is in his effort to accelerate the racket unnaturally by pulling the elbow in towards the body. a long lever will create more speed. he starts out with a straight lever in the "dog pat" position, has good shoulder turn, good hip alignment.

He can't extend his long lever, which i would be pleased with, because...and i know everyone on here is gonna chastise me for saying it again...HE IS TOO CLOSE TO THE BALL. Further away and he will be able to utilize the longer, faster lever...aka faster racket head speed.

second video...horrible shoulder turn, poor racket sweet spot behind the ball, i think a turn in the wrong direction.

plus, the kid doesn't even remotely look at the ball so he can't possibly know where his contact point should be.

hope that is of value to you.

[oliensis]

FWIW, IMHO,the backswing in the first video clip does not look problematic to me. Look at Djokovic videos, the hitting racket face points to the back fence, then down. What makes it non-problematic to me is the very generous hip and shoulder rotation in the fairly extreme western-ish forehand stroke. In my view, the more open the shoulders are at the point of contact, the more OK it is to have closed the racket face more severely on the backswing. It actually keeps the hitting structure of the arm fairly intact as hips and shoulders open up while moving toward contact point.

As for the length of the hitting lever and Carrera's view of that. I think it's an interesting question. But I suspect that the physics/biomechanics are not as simple as of a simple lever. There are, I think, more complex, inter-acting fulcrums from which "links" accelerate, one following another (doesnt the phrase, "kinetic chain" suggest something looser and whippier than a lever?). As well, there are other factors besides pure power/leverage that need to be considered (consistency, spin, trajectory, etc.) that lead to there being more than one "right" way to skin a cat (so to speak).

If the straight lever were the only right way to hit the ball, wouldn't all the best forehands use it? And wouldn't they use it all (or almost all) the time? Maybe they will, as the sport evolves, but it'd be tough for me to say that Agassi's forehand is "wrong" or that Fernando Gonzalez's forehand is wrong. They both generatea helluva a lot of juice with double bend hitting structure (among others). As does Djokovic, with his extremely closed racket face on the backswing.

In edit: My first Tae Kwon Do master taught me that there was a right way to punch and a wrong way. Years later, as I continued studying martial arts, I did some boxing at Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn. Of interest was how blurry my vision became when I got punched in noggin by a boxer who threw his right hand "all wrong."

[nabrug]

If the straight lever were the only right way to hit the ball, wouldn't all the best forehands use it? And wouldn't they use it all (or almost all) the time? Maybe they will, as the sport evolves, but it'd be tough for me to say that Agassi's forehand is "wrong" or that Fernando Gonzalez's forehand is wrong. They both generatea helluva a lot of juice with double bend hitting structure (among others). As does Djokovic, with his extremely closed racket face on the backswing.

Oliensis, are you maybe implying that there could be more than one FH technique?

[airforce1]

Oliensis, are you maybe implying that there could be more than one FH technique?

I'd like to imply that there are infinite FH techniques given all the adjustments, styles and body types, and that we as coaches, try to find or create molds as teaching aids to guide a student to a place where they can find their own FH.

[nabrug]

i am personally working to achieve that more in my own forehand.

I thought you were 100% hitting that way already? So you don't achieve this all the time?

Nico Mol

[airforce1]

I've uploaded a clip to Youtube as I couldn't seem to do it thru tennispalyer.

There are two clips: The problem, and the attempted remedy.

The boy, 12, has a extreme dog pat technique on his forehand. John Yandell agrees. The shot does work fairly well, however, so the dilemma is should I leave it or should I go thru the drawn out and difficult process of opening up his racket face 15 degrees.

If you look carefully the racket not only goes into a completely flat position at the end of the backswing, but for a split second it tilts even further so the edge of racket slightly points toward the ground.

I notice David Ferrer and Verdasco have very closed racket faces as they swing toward the ball. They are not totally closed though.

What are the drawbacks of leaving it how it is? Does anyone know?

I uploaded the clip and my attempted remedy for everyone's perusal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvECcXdskUc

The remedy. I get the student to start with the racket drawn back and with the racket face more open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

my concern would be the way the racket seems to go back and stop, only then to have to start again forward. most would refer to this as a hitch I believe. Do you see it this way?

[tcuk]

Yes, airforce, you are absolutely correct, well spotted. I think he needs a more continous loop. The swing doesn't go deep enough.

The racket lays very flat and even tilts downwards further. This increases on lower balls. It creates a problem and somehow slightly restricts the double bend.

I'll upload some more clips tomorrow. Will you take a look? I'll give you views from different angles. I think you may be a guy with the knowledge to help. I hope you will try to help me on this one. The kids talented and a workaholic, I want to do my best for him.

[10splayer]

Yes, airforce, you are absolutely correct, well spotted. I think he needs a more continous loop.

The swing doesn't go deep enough.

The racket lays very flat and even tilts downwards further. This increases on lower balls. It creates a problem and somehow slightly restricts the double bend.

I'll upload some more clips tomorrow. Will you take a look? I'll give you views from different angles. I think you may be a guy with the knowledge to help. I hope you will try to help me on this one. The kids talented and a workaholic, I want to do my best for him.

What do you mean by this Tcuk?

[nabrug]

I'd like to imply that there are infinite FH techniques given all the adjustments, styles and body types, and that we as coaches, try to find or create molds as teaching aids to guide a student to a place where they can find their own FH.

No, in my opinion you have variations within one technique and you have a real different technique with a different origin. Why else are all the straight arm FH's we see different from Federer's (and Nadal)? Or to put it differently why can't hardly anybody with a conventional/classical FH produce such a stroke. If it was the same origin you would be able to hit like Federer too.

[tcuk]

What do you mean by this Tcuk?

10splayers, sometimes his racket path barely drops beneath the height of the ball coming at him.

[10splayer]

This is what I see. As he steps up to the top of the backswing, the racquet is more or less on edge. As he lays the racquet down, he begins to pronate, or turn his thumb down slightly, which closes the racquet face substantially. Now he has to rotate the arm alot (supinate);in a short amount of time, to set up the hitting arm structure. He seems to meet his hitting arm and contact point requirements, on fed balls, but I would definately worry about managing this move under duress. It's a real "man's move" to continue to pronate the forearm throughout the racquet drop. Most players relax the arm and wrist at the top of the backswing and then just lay the racquet down passively. At least I believe this is important to teach initially.

One of the things I work on with my better kids, is to have them invert the racquet , (pronate) BEFORE they lay the racquet down, (and make sure it falls within a range of acceptability) instead of as they lay the racquet down. I find it makes it much, much easier for them them to set the hitting arm structure sooner, if they need to. In other words, In my opinion, it is not a good idea to be in the process of closing the racquet face late in the downswing.

AS a side note, I also find it interesting that he goes from a bent elbow in the drop, to straight at the bottom of the loop, to bent as he moves into the forward swing. Playing around with this a little, it seems to me, that if you take a mild grip and pronate through the downswing, the elbow wants to naturally straighten out. In fact, I believe this is what Fed does. But, that just a theory.

[tcuk]

10s, you're right. If he has time he can produce a bazooka of a shot relative to his size and body weight. Under pressure, he makes mistakes...also on wide balls he experiences problems.

The dog pat seems to cut his loop short. He prepares well, goes into his backswing, but flattens the racket face at the critical point as he commences the forward swing. The bottom of the loop somehow doesn't happen.

The probems is how can I rectify this rather deep rooted problem?

[airforce1]

If it was the same origin you would be able to hit like Federer too.

I don't accept this as a valid premise on a couple of grounds.

And not to compare me to Fed in any way, I probably have more FH variations than he does and can be quite the mimic of strokes given some time. I've often wondered if this was more of a strength or liability?

[nabrug]

AS a side note, I also find it interesting that he goes from a bent elbow in the drop, to straight at the bottom of the loop, to bent as he moves into the forward swing. Playing around with this a little, it seems to me, that if you take a mild grip and pronate through the downswing, the elbow wants to naturally straighten out. In fact, I believe this is what Fed does. But, that just a theory.

No, au contraire (like the Russians say), you are so correct and it is no theory. I had seen it already but saw no need to mention it. You can see it more especially with beginning adults!? I think that Federer developed his FH in a way like this. So coaches beware! I want to say to all the coaches be very, very, very dedicated but be very, very, very, very, very, very educated first before you force caracteristics upon your pupils without knowing what you are doing. Maybe with all your dedication you are destroying the next Federer or Nadal or the next development in tennis.