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OK at some point I guess I have to figure this out for myself--thanks for the provocative pictures and posts...
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Just a small note - interesting to see where Djoker's racquet head is pointing, in contrast to that of Safina and Söderling.
At some point, it is good to let player develop a feel for the full swing, although some coaches promote short backswing, tip of the racquet handle pointing to the ball at somewhat closer range, giving instant success (often) in achieving a good contact with the ball (when working with beginners).
That method does promote automatically never breaking the plane behind the hitting shoulder, something that is almost uniformly the feature of the mens tennis.
I do like, however, this "breaking the plane" style - often seen in ladies tennis; just as a method (sometimes used as an exaggeration method) for getting the feel for the swing, often helpful in promoting the path of the racquet that imparts brush-up on the ball naturally.
Always admired Davenport and Sharapova for getting the racquet head in this position so smoothly. You almost sense how this position enables unleashing the racquet into a great forehand drive.
Sort of like the archers "potential energy position".Comment
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Love your post; I'll tell you as well why:Originally posted by jperedo View PostI agree with the theory somewhat in that the reason for the delay in upper arm external rotation is to increase the windshield wiper speed. However as I noted in another post I don't believe that the forearm is much of a contributer to topspin. It's the bigger muscles internally rotating the humerus that really powers the windshield wiper motion. Hence the the purpose of the delay in upper arm external rotation for the men is simply to increase upper arm internal rotation.
Here are links to videos that I cap'd the pictures from.
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...ActionRear.mov
I had a "fierce" debate with an occasional practice partner on this issue.
I took a same standpoint in argument as the one stated in bold in the quote from you; he was (and still is) convinced that the best advice he ever got from some old coach was that forearm pronation is crucial for generating the topspin and powerful forehand altogether.
Now, seeing the wealth of evidence pointing towards what we are saying here (number of slow-mos, among other things) and with some experience, I claim that adopting the "forearm" philosophy can, taken from the beginning in working with kids, leave permanent damage in teaching the stroke.
I've seen, even recently, kids that I had to spend some time with correcting exactly this error.
This error results -in such "cases" in following flaws: no control in imparting the spin on the ball, resulting in inability to hit ball deep, lack of directional control, and of course loss of power in the shot.
It is not impossible to cure, but it is amazing to see how many are not even recognizing this as a problem to begin with.
What you write is very important - it is essential to understand this in practical, day to day work with kids, adults, and others being coached in tennis.
It is far from just supposedly theoretical or academic debate.Comment
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Looking at the videos posted by jperedo, it seems that both Safina and Soderling are pulling across the ball using their biceps, causing the arm to bend and fold in WW fashion. But I don't see any rotation of the humerus as such...Comment
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Hard to see it in 2D, but watch the elbow orientation go from pointing to the ground at the start of the forward swing then towards the side fence at the completion. Only way for this to happen is through rotation of the humerus.Originally posted by tennisplayer View Post
Funny you mention the biceps thing as I was just reading an old thread from 2006 about "Extension" and the role of the biceps. Brian Gordon mentions that using the biceps for a double bend forehand is a bad thing, but then the discussion turned to the bicep's role in a straight arm style forehand. Basically the conclusion reached by the group is that elbow flexion increased topspin somehow. I can't really get convinced though based on the video evidence.
Brian if you read this can you be so inclined to toss me a bone on this one? Does elbow flexion contribute to vertical racquet head speed based on your findings?Last edited by jperedo; 07-20-2009, 05:45 PM.Comment
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I see what you are saying, jperedo... thanks. Not that this discussion will change the way I hit
but it's very interesting nevertheless.
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It can but in my experience typically does not in someone's base forehand package (manageable positioning and incoming ball attributes).Originally posted by jperedo View Post
An exception is in developing players who have not mastered their sources of velocity for their given arm geometry (double bend, straight, in between, etc.). These players tend to rely more on flexion which may compromise horizontal velocity too much.
Another exception is a specific adaptation to the base package in response to a tactical challenge (as Brett Hobden would describe it) or opportunity. Where an exceptional vertical velocity component is desired for a specific response, flexion is often used for that purpose - it is often coupled with more abrupt lifting of the arm at the shoulder (abduction and/or flexion) - the result is usually the reverse finish John talked about in his video series.
More interesting to me in this thread is your identification of the role of upper arm external rotation in the back swing (or lack thereof). An important observation that begins to explain a lot about technique differences among players (developmental stage, gender, etc.). Interested to see how your logic progresses as it relates to this topic.Comment
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Gentlemen I am learning please keep talking...Comment
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Brian G.
I can just see the smile on Brian's face now.Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
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