Soderling Forehand

[rosheem]

I've been looking at the new clips of Soderling's forehand to see if I could come up with any interesting observations.

I am particularly interested in his forehand because there are some aspects that are similar to mine. I also take the racquet back a little bit behind me and have a relatively small amount of loop in my take-back. Not that I modeled my forehand this way intentionally...that's just the way it has turned out so far.

I agree with previous posts that his forehand is similar to Murray's. Murray's wrist is even more neutral than Soderling's at the transition from back swing to forward swing.

I would say that the major difference with Soderling is that he rotates his shoulders further. From the front view, you can see the back of his right shoulder at the furthest point in his back swing. His elbow does drift back near the completion of his backswing as well. He also starts to supinate the forearm a little bit, which brings the racquet head back even further. None of these movements are too extreme, but when you add them all up, the take-back does end up pretty far behind him compared to the other men.

I also noticed that his left arm is not as involved in the forward part of his swing compared to other pro men. As he reaches maximum shoulder turn at the end of his back swing, his left arm has already kind of passively fallen towards the left and points toward the net early in his forward swing. Other players seem to keep the left arm stretched across longer and then drive it back from the left elbow instead of letting the left arm passively fall down.

He also does not have a huge amount of wrist lag and subsequent catching up compared to others. Like Murray, his forward swing is more of a one-piece motion. This may have more impact on spin than on ball speed or power and could explain why he hits a relatively flatter ball.

Also similar to Murray, his shoulder rotation seems to mirror his hip rotation. When he finishes with his right shoulder forward, his right hip is also forward. Some of the other pros seem to put the brakes on the hip rotation earlier and the shoulders end up rotating beyond the hips, which end up more square to the net. This point is a subtle one, but I think important. If you watch the clips carefully, you can see that in many cases, hip rotation beyond parallel to the net is more of a consequence of the shoulders pulling the hips around. In swings that are more like Murray and Soderling, though, the hip rotation seems to be more connected with driving and powering the shot, rather than a consequence.

I would love to hear any comments or additional observations. Is there anything we can learn from Soderling? In my opinion, there may be something valuable about the simplicity of his forehand. Even though he takes his racquet back further, his motion is actually kind of simple.

What about the similarity to the "WTA" forehands? We may look at it and conclude that since it looks like a WTA stroke, we should discard it. However, I think his type of stroke might require MORE athleticism because of the power needed to generate the hip and shoulder rotation repeatedly over the course of a match or tournament.

[johnyandell]

Great questions. And I agree about his left arm. Also if you note, in general his extension seems to be less than the other top players over a large number of balls.

I like simple backswings myself and as for those who want to discard the WTA forehand, well, most of those players could blast 99% of our subscribers off the court no matter how technically advanced they may think their forehands are.

Don't think any of this can truly be answered without more precise data, but in my opinion Soderling may be suceeding because of raw ability more than perfect technique--although obviously his technique is good enough if you can beat Nadal on clay.

It's the overall combination of elements, right? and every player can experiment with varying and improving them. My own feeling is he could stretch that left arm harder and extend more--that would make more difference than changing the backswing. But again, when you've tried to rally with top 100 players who may not have perfect technique and feel the incredible explosiveness of their ball, it's hard to make judgments from on high.

[jperedo]

I think the WTA similarity is a superficial one. The WTA forehand is characterized by the upper arm being externally rotated during the backswing, and not so much by the supinated forearm. Soderling's elbow stays pointed behind him until he initates hip rotation, even though his forearm is already supinated. Rafa and Andy Murray do the same thing. I think Soderling is still getting tons of spin but with a flatter trajectory.

Here's a comparison of arm positions with Sod and Dinara Safina before hip rotation is initiated.

[johnyandell]

Gorgeous work there! Actually they look pretty similar the difference may be the grip(?) Or possibly I'm missing the external rotation/supination point.

[jperedo]

They actually do look almost exactly the same. The key diff is the supination/external rotation bit.

Their lower arms (forearms) are externally rotated (i.e. - supinated) relative to their upper arm. However, the big difference is that Dinara's UPPER arm (humerus) is externally rotated to a greater degree prior to hip rotation. Sod, and most ATP players will wait until hip rotation is initiated before their upper arms externally rotate. The timing and causes (i.e. contraction of external rotators vs. motion dependant effect) of the external rotation to me is the distinguishing feature between ATP and WTA style.

[rosheem]

That's a great photo comparison. My comparison of Sod's forehand to a "WTA" forehand was superficial, in that I was just guessing that many people would see the take back and make that conclusion on their own.

Now you've got me thinking about the timing of this external rotation of the humerus relative to the hips, but maybe more importantly, relative to the forearm. Maybe the delay in this external rotation contributes to more torque built up between the upper arm and lower arm. Because it is delayed, the energy from the stretch-reflex rebound effect from this built up torque can be better harnessed to produce a more powerful wiper effect.

Just a theory.

Personally, I have much more basic things to work on while I am waiting for Mr. Soderling to call and ask me for my analysis of his unit turn but I do enjoy the discussion.

[johnyandell]

Interesting theory. I still can't see it in these photos though. Post the links to the clips OK? Or if you see some others that show it clearly.

[jperedo]

I agree with the theory somewhat in that the reason for the delay in upper arm external rotation is to increase the windshield wiper speed. However as I noted in another post I don't believe that the forearm is much of a contributer to topspin. It's the bigger muscles internally rotating the humerus that really powers the windshield wiper motion. Hence the the purpose of the delay in upper arm external rotation for the men is simply to increase upper arm internal rotation.

Here are links to videos that I cap'd the pictures from.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/dinara_safina/ds_forehand/ds_fh_center/ds_fh_center.html?DSFHCenterOpenStanceRear.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/robin_soderling/rs_forehand/rs_fh_arm_action/rs_fh_arm_action.html?RSFHCenterArmActionRear.mov

[johnyandell]

Yeah but if I am reading you right players like Djokovic are in the same position as Safina in terms of the racket face pointing flush back parallel to baseline at about the same time--just with everything further to the right. (Safina say 3 frames post ball bounce.)

Not sure that distinction--if I am getting it--will hold up across the range of players.

[jperedo]

I think I may have lost you

To see what I'm talking about a different way -

ATP style forehand - elbow points behind the body until hip rotation
WTA style forehand - elbow points towards the ground almost immediately with the unit turn

This holds up for most players with a few exceptions here and there. (Guga, Richard Chardy on the men's side. Justin Henin, Sam Stosur amongst the ladies)

[johnyandell]

Ok Interesting. Hadn't really looked at it that way. Will explore in my spare time (ha).

[johnyandell]

OK looked at one Djokovic--would you say this is closer to Safina than Soderling?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/HD/Novak_Djokovic/Forehand_Backhand/Forehand_Backhand.html?djokovic_fh_center_rear_1.mov

[jperedo]

Djoker is more like Soderling.

Below you can see Djoker's and Soderling's elbows facing the side fence. Dinara's is pointing to the ground. However, Soderling's racquet is almost past his body plane because his forearm is supinated, like Dinara. This gives the illusion of a WTA style forehand, if one were just to look at the racquet tip.

[johnyandell]

Yeah pretty pictures again. But in that clip Djok's elbow does point more downward than in that frame.

Again really interesting issue and how it relates to the differences in the backswings. Something I'll try to think about. I remember this whole thing with the guys at the TW message boards like Tricky and frankly I never got my head around it.

Definitely convinced the women come back further behind the body--except for Justine who modeled on Agassi. Great topic for an article if I could ever fully understand what it means.

[jperedo]

The elbow eventually points down, the key is it doesn't point down until the hips begin to rotate the torso and shoulders. Those frames are pretty much right before hip rotation.

Yea I remember that stuff on TW. In my opinion the explanations weren't quite right (once i finally deciphered them) as they focused solely on forearm movements.