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  • bottle
    replied
    Composite Grip See See

    Work on making this a LRL shot. With a big adjustment step by right foot at the end starting before contact. John M. Barnaby: "As the shot is made the striker pivots sharply so he is actually facing crosscourt at the conclusion of the swing and his right leg has walked completely around the ball, thus turning it decisively to the left at the last minute."

    This is very precise description. The shot it is meant to elicit must also be precise. The shoulders face crosscourt "at the conclusion of the swing," not at contact. At contact, during the beginning of the sharp pivot, the shoulders are still quite closed. This enables the rather open racket to close rather than open more as the elbow greases past the body.

    The three steps of LRL can be very short in best case scenario. Further, one can make the first step partial rather than to directly in front of the right foot as in the most basic form of solid McEnrueful deep hit. One can make this shortcut but should one? Deception will be lost but torture gained.

    Whatever one's choice, one foregoes one's usual practice of rotating hips into left foot held flat. All trust is placed on the diagonal adjustment step to help bring the hips around.

    Every bit of the scheme must contribute to final objective of an almost but not quite cramped shot. With sloping of the shoulders to bring racket down to occur as in every other form of McEnrueful. Which means that shoulder will bank up as part of the light brush.

    Now to try the shot, which has to work, it seems to me-- always a dangerous thought.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by bottle; 11-16-2015, 06:52 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Add a Third Shot to the Mix

    In seniors doubles I've noticed that most of the players stand still like sphinxes waiting for the ball to come to them.

    To rebel against this, I adopt the LRL and RLR shots described in the previous post. And add a third, semi-open but hit about half the time with flat left foot into which the hips revolve.

    That leaves three different shots to be alternated through an entire session of self-feed:

    1) Skip toward ball in as square a final step as possible. Rotate hips into a flat left foot blending into small adjustment foot re-arrangement at end.

    2) Hit similar shot from semi-open with or without adjustment step.

    3) Hit the spinnier shot produced by more verticality of body movement as described in the previous post.

    1) and 2) are flatter versions of the same shot (a McEnrueful) and 2) may be hit from either foot.

    3) spinnier, is a bit harder to produce. That is why all three shots should be practiced together in self-feed to produce equal availability. Then take them to the next level (ball machine, simple hit with partner, doubles or singles competition).

    Add in see see and looped forehand (both hit with stronger grips) for full forehand orchestration.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-15-2015, 06:44 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Paralysis by Not Enough Analysis 2

    You as tennis player can speak about paralysis by analysis all you want. You can say that tennis is learned by feel not logic. But I say paralysis by not enough analysis is just as real.

    The discussion means more when one has a worthy stroke development project underway. I hit some good semi-open McEnruefuls in doubles last night but want to nail them down, i.e., make them accurate, consistent and repeatable.

    Could one put training wheels on this project? A first suggestion: In self-feed alternate neutral shots (left right left) with semi-open (right left right) until they both go in looking good every time.

    In the neutral shots skip straight toward the ball, keeping your head still. In the semi-open shots use same down-and-up (as it refers to racket path) with human head very still during the "down." Then the fun begins. On up the knees go down. The knees then go up as the turning shoulders slope and unslope.

    Elbow to start and stay slightly out from body in both shots; slope and unslope also to be a feature of both. Slope is what takes the racket down before the hit. All strokes to be hit in a rhythm of no more than two parts.

    Duration of shot production may seem longer for semi-open. Departing ball may seem lighter as well. This nevertheless is my current kick.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-14-2015, 11:19 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Continued

    To further compare the two videos in the previous post: In the running forehand the elbow is natural and slightly away from the body. In the up-and-down forehand (where JM had more time to burn), the elbow is in close brushing the body. If racket head continues up while knees go down, the arm then is twisting or "keying" the racket up, not lifting it.

    So: the knees go down as the racket goes up. The knees go up as the racket goes down.

    This sounds as if the elbow is taking a solo, but it isn't. It is firmly connected (to body) through every bit of the whole cycle right up to contact.

    Clicking on round circle to play the up-and-down video does not reveal the amount of backward shoulders slant discoverable once one creates a blue frame. There is in this stroke a lot of the aeronautical banking that Welby Van Horne alludes to in the Ed Weiss book SECRETS OF A TRUE TENNIS MASTER.

    Not all of John McEnroe's rotational energy goes into horizontal body whirl as in his running forehand (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov). That energy, in fact, is split between horizontal and diagonal twist. The hitting shoulder hauls upward as well as comes around (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear4.mov).

    Perhaps a start to learning this lies in re-conceiving the John McEnroe forehand from straight back to small loop that occurs during the transition from knee compression to knee extension. The racket keys up then drops from the two shoulders adopting their backward slant. Which doesn't last long or at all. The back shoulder hauls immediately upward toward contact besides coming around.

    This could be the time to consider Tom Okker's comment that recreational players don't use enough time once they have come into correct position for hitting a ground stroke. Everybody knows that Justine Henin's or John McEnroe's footwork is perfect due to its economy. And this economy leads to more time for getting off some shot. One needs, in present case, to have bought enough time so that one can both slope and unslope the shoulders during a single leg drive.

    Remember Michael Jordan's readjustments in mid-air. And that John McEnroe played lots of basketball. I know a guy from the Bronx who did it with him.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-14-2015, 08:02 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Corn Beef with Hash

    I disbelieve almost everything I've ever read on the John McEnroe forehand while musing-- arrogantly perhaps-- that I have earned this disbelief, i.e., did the necessary first-hand research for arriving at this viewpoint.

    Can others make such a claim? I doubt it. But if they do, go ahead and shoot me although I realize this is a dangerous thing to say in a society more full of guns than human beings.

    In his autobiography, John McEnroe stresses the importance to his game of his naturally strong legs. But you won't see much up-and-down in a forehand such as this one (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov).

    You will see said up-and-down in this one (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear1.mov).

    Let's examine the up-and-down one (and up again and down again) by clicking under the video in the grey line along which the rectangular pointer rides. First we accept a reality of the new age: We have a cursor and a pointer or free will and fate.

    Having clicked on the grey line which click brought the pointer to it on a run, we next push down any one of the four arrow buttons on our computer keyboard.

    A liquid blue line suddenly frames our work. Now we are ready to rock and roll.

    Starting at left end of the blue frame, push down the right arrow again and again. You will see that the pointer develops three hash marks after 12 clicks, holds them for 4 clicks, removes them for the next 12 clicks. All this is for reference.

    To live in the now, simply fool around by repeatedly pushing the left and right arrow buttons to see what happens.

    Click on circle to run the video and clear its works and start at left edge all over again. By the time the hash marks first appear, John McEnroe has done most of a complete split-step without committing himself.

    During the 4 clicks of hash marks present, John McEnroe completes the split-step by unweighting more but still has not committed himself.

    In the next 12 clicks of no hash marks, JM has not only turned toward his forehand but extended his legs and inchwormed his inside foot across a bit.

    In the next 4 clicks of hash marks, JM has replaced his outside foot farther toward side fence and lifted his racket. Did racket start up as hips started up? Yes.

    In the next 12 clicks of no hash marks a pretty wild thing happened. The racket continues up as his knees re-compress. If JM reads this, he will never ever win another Plowshares event.

    I don't care. This is for me, not him, and I plan to forget this post quickly, well at least by the tennis social tonight. In the 4 clicks with hash marks, the outside leg starts driving upward. The right leg is more of a passive outrigger. His left hip is going upward while his racket goes down. How could that be? He was supposed to be solid at this point? But he is solid. It is his shoulders that adopt a backward slant. That is how the racket goes down.

    In the next 12 clicks-- hashless-- JM hits the ball. This is the business (bidnis) part of the stroke. The outside leg drives up and into the air (while staying slightly bent). The body whirls. The shoulders bank to become level. The racket c-a-a-a-r-r-r-r-ies the ball.

    In the next 4 clicks (with hash) the hitting shoulder banks slightly above level. The racket slams over toward side fence. The feet, having left the ground, re-arrange into the shot.

    In the next 12 clicks (hashless) the racket and inside knee come down together into a low crouch for spring toward center of the court.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-13-2015, 07:18 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Paralysis by Not Enough Analysis



    He already is in the semi-open stance and almost perfect location from which he wants to hit the ball.

    He compresses both knees, which act by its bottom has started the turn.

    The racket has gone down and started up. But by the time it goes up his body has gone up, i.e., both legs have slightly extended in tandem with the racket. This first extension lifts both feet off the court and slightly rearranges them thus causing the chi-chi sound.

    Now the knees bend for a second time. The racket goes up and down.

    The hit is a solid combination of double leg drive and body whirl.

    This is a John McEnroe forehand as never imagined before, at least by me, with immediate implication for continued development of my McEnrueful.

    One astounding feature is that the unit turn involves the complete rearrangement of both feet.

    The cornerstone is two different compressions of the knees.

    This corresponds to the micro-bopping in the kind of jitterbug that some dancers do only here with both feet instead of one.

    The small moves are so fast that a 75-year old might not be able to do them, not at least until he gets relaxed. A younger person can do them once he knows what he is trying to do.

    Time now to peruse other JM videos to look for the same double compression interlaced with intricate footwork.

    Note: I don't think anyone has taken a full stab at explaining what is going on in the undercarriage of videos at Tennis Player. If someone else tells what they know I will tell what I know.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-13-2015, 07:05 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Curious Unweighting



    This is just one forehand, probably not typical, but what can its late unweighting and leg drive tell us about distribution or anything else in our potential McEnrueful bag of tricks?

    The chi-chi noise that John McEnroe's sneakers (or sneaker) make is late as is completion of his point-across-by-opposite-hand.

    Shoulders are still turning backward at a time when other players are doing a breast stroke or swan dive.

    For whatever the reason, his feet do last instant re-adjustment hence the noise, and then he seems to drive off both of them.

    The loading here reminds me of a jet turn on long skis I was lucky enough to learn from an instructor in the French Alps near Megeve at Crest Voland. In that one, you bent your upper body in the direction you wanted to go then suddenly compressed both knees.

    Nothing like that taking of body angle occurs here to readjust the feet. I therefore vote for the late point-across-by-opposite-hand.

    Ditditditscratchhit.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-12-2015, 04:18 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Discovery vs. Learning

    "They are the same," you say.

    In theory but not in practice.

    It will take you longer.-- Vic Braden

    Tennis will come to you.-- Steve Navarro

    The excitement here derives from simple comparison of posts 2774, 2771, 2768 and thereabouts (note especially Stotty's significant contribution to the progression).

    Hey listen, reader. The partial knee replacement and the pure unreplaced knee already are acting up a little. I therefore surmise not much time left to claim that I have brought my McEnrueful another step toward the ideal.

    The ideal lies in a squeak. The squeak lies in this video (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear4.mov). No lie here that there is a squeak, a chi-chi. Put the cursor somewhere in the video undercarriage just before the chi-chi of John McEnroe's sneaker and hold the left button down until you get the chi-chi to repeat over and over.

    Fool around with this technology to which Jeffrey Counts contributed. Figure out the dance sequence that John McEnroe is using here, taking the squeak as cue. Do you know, reader, that if you shift from computer mouse to arrows on a keyboard a special box forms around the video undercarriage and that the box then has special properties for you to explore?

    Well, I see the possibilities here for us together to learn the best McEnrueful possible, but first you should adjust (mush) your face. Make it long and sad. Make it bony too if you are a person who carries flesh. To hit a McEnrueful you need not only emulate John McEnroe but the skeletal Don Quixote himself, "the knight of the rueful countenance" in the Samuel Putnam translation.

    This is the aspect that broadway musicals and other adaptations of the novel DON QUIXOTE always miss-- the knight's depth of pain and sadness. Do you think those bowdlerizers actually know how to read? I don't.

    Well well well three holes in a row. In John McEnroe's autobiography John finds his own physicality unremarkable except for very strong legs.

    Does one want to load outside leg late with a chi-chi from the other foot's toes and in a number of other videos but with no chi-chi and slightly different footwork?

    Or does one want to keep inside foot flat and whirl hips into it as in the basic grounded Welby Van Horn forehand?
    Last edited by bottle; 11-11-2015, 03:54 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    The One I Might Like to Go With



    There is drive from outside leg, right? And load on that leg first. Late load, one could say.

    Subject of study: The banking (aeronautical) in this shot.

    One can see the racket go slightly down at beginning of the forward shot, no?

    If we call John McEnroe an airplane, his back wing tips down a small amount.

    At the same time his outside leg bends: an answer to the question of what makes the wing tip or racket tip in this case go down.

    Body construction is solid and upright. The leading candidate for another answer was body tilt happening to make the racket go down-- and that might work-- but isn't what we see here.

    No, John McEnroe, the martinet, keeps his posture fully erect.

    And yet banking occurs. From the leg first and then the hitting shoulder second and then that same shoulder banks down.

    Note: When one drives from leg one can keep knee slightly bent so as to let feet come more easily off the ground. Degree of bank is also increased by opposite foot first perching on its toes. Last ditditdit then consists of step by outside foot, step by inside foot, outside leg bending to load where it is (replacement step). Flattoesload-hit. Ditditdit-hit. This feels better to me if I only put about half of my weight on the inside foot. Regardless of how one got there, one now puts down the outside foot and bops on it with inside toes briefly touching the court between the step and the bop. Certainly not what happens every time but it did happen this time.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-10-2015, 11:56 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Hard to Soft; Soft to Hard

    Knowledgeable people say that planning in tennis is important, so I'm going to believe them and plan right now.

    Those knowledgeable people hit pretty hard most of the time then once in a while hit soft.

    The ones I most admire though hit soft (but deep) then hit hard just when they want to.

    That for me. But the soft shots can be solid. And go pretty fast (a paradox). They just are not rocket fast like the other very spinny shot which I'm going to save for a special occasion in the seventh game.

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  • bottle
    replied
    How Much Energy Do People Spend in Designing their own Game?

    Not enough. They mostly accept ready-made grids from teaching pros-- not that I want to knock hard-working tennis pros.

    The criticism here is of the students themselves for not being more rebellious and innovative.

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  • bottle
    replied
    McEnroe Type Forehand Not Working? Try This.

    "I hate the continental grip!" This from a close friend, occasional doubles partner and very good tennis player.

    I've even heard from actual teaching pros of the certified sort that if you use a continental grip you will hit the ball up into the sky. These guys definitely think that John McEnroe as model doesn't count because he is so retro and weird.

    First thing to note is that McEnroe doesn't use a continental but rather a composite grip one notch toward eastern forehand.

    Second, one can ask how closed are his shoulders at contact, and exactly where is contact, and is there anything else in the McEnroe forehand that affects pitch in a way that might help one to control it?

    I would suggest a slight pushing of the elbow toward the ball. If shoulders are open this will increase the openness of the already open grip, but if shoulders are closed the same thrust will CLOSE the strings.

    Then add this knowledge-- if elbow thrusts to outside of ball rather than straight at it the strings will close and direct ball farther in crosscourt direction.

    This feels nothing like a vigorous twist of the elbow that sacrifices all predictable control.

    P.S. Some may have the talent to add a bit of knee straightening and radial deviation in wrist area to the mix. Others can still hit a deep hard (carried) shot no doubt more easily produced than anything else in their current tennis lexicon.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-10-2015, 06:37 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Personal Distinction Between Struck and Caressed Volleys

    Why should one make a personal distinction when one can do things by the book?

    Because one must learn to trust one's own experience and learn this early whether the U.S. Education System believes so or not.

    Caressed or massaged in which one primarily uses the speed of the oncoming ball: Get foot down as part of skating into ball and stay solid and deflect.

    Struck or sticked: Make hips rotation driven contact just before the foot sets down.

    What if you got stuck with foot in the air? You will have to improvise, I guess.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-08-2015, 10:19 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    The Tragic Flaw of the Short cc Passing Shot Subbing for a See See

    It's a winner and therefore doesn't torture the opponent enough. The true see see has the name I gave it and is something I invented and is pretty much what I say it is-- a soft, spinny shot.

    Both are examples of "topspin angle," to use John M. Barnaby's phrase, but the see see is a shot that the opponent napping on the baseline believes he can get to.

    And you want him to get to it after a long run so that you can then knock off your volley to the exact same place. That is the plan, part of which is to discourage and tire him-- something that a clean winner will never do.

    Nevertheless, you should try for a clean winner, I believe, near the beginning of the first doubles set. The see see is a confidence shot in two different ways, 1) you need to build up the relaxed confidence to hit it and 2) you need to build up your opponent's confidence to make him run forward.

    Remember, the pass subbing for a see see is a shot in which you imagine a king or knight in full armor camped out on the service line while the real opponent is back on the baseline.

    Reader, you may think this substitute shot, hit with full mustard though still brush up, is all you ever need.

    And you can play that way. Exquisite torture on a tennis court however (pointless, banal and ugly beyond belief off of a tennis court), is sublime.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-07-2015, 05:43 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Evolution

    Originally posted by bottle View Post
    The real difference is in sequence: arm then body in McEnroe's feel and shove vs. Djokovic's body then arm in his big whack. But Djokovic has tremendous touch available to him too.
    I shouldn't change my mind while I'm hitting a shot any more than anyone else, but when I'm between matches or sleeping or taking a walk or in the shower it's perfectly healthy-- in my personal view-- to wipe something clean and start all over again.

    In reviewing the TP treasure trove of flat-wristed John McEnroe forehands, I note that he starts with racket parallel to court. I used to start, in my McEnrueful, with racket on a 45-degree angle slanted upward, a huge difference.

    If as Nick Wheatley in "1-2 Forehand" says, there is a danger in hand-off backswings of getting the racket back too soon, notice how McEnroe takes racket down a little before it goes up. That puts a little more time, timing and rhythm into the backswing.

    All by myself, I changed my McEnrueful into a stroke where racket tip went directly up a little (from already being pointed up a little). Then it came feelingly down for the ball. Then I shoved the ball. I won't abandon this shot particularly when trucking toward the net for a low ball.

    Now that my wait position has racket parallel to court, however, I feel like going down and up like McEnroe to start. Then, taking a page from his topspin backhand, I want body, not arm to take the strings downward. Now the "shove" or whole body turn can start from there. And, since arm hasn't asserted independence yet, contact area would be a good time for it to do so: One can push racket butt forward a little to increase the dwell but also at the same time twist strings a bit toward side fence as part of a slamming followthrough.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-06-2015, 01:51 PM.

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