A New Year's Serve

[rosheem]

Bottle,

I wrote this in my tennis journal and wanted to see what you thought:

"Use a snapping untwisting through contact to squeeze the racquet from on-edge to on-other-edge in the smallest amount of time and space possible. Pure endorotation will not squeeze the racquet head through a small enough space. It is more of a pure twisting motion. If the hand applies the right amount of pressure on the handle, the handle and hoop of the racquet seem to feel almost rubbery, and it almost feels like the upper left quadrant of the racquet is the last part to fold over through the twisting at contact."

Does that make any sense?

The reason I posted is because you referenced something about a small force over a long distance can produce as much speed as a larger force over a small distance.

In my kicker, it almost seems like I feel one type of force within the other. The untwisting as the entire arm turns inside out, and the larger but slower force of the legs, shoulders, torso rotation which allow the entire framework to rise through contact. The twisting happens last and ends first, within the framework of the bigger motion.

The key for me...and this one is huge and something I continue to work on with every serve....is to understand how to make the untwisting happen naturally, and how to make it that fastest thing that's going on within the motion. The elbow extension and ulnar deviation used to be the faster motions and the source of delayed acceleration for me, and I struggled to get my racquet to finish like it does for Federer. I think it might be due to the fact that creating a snap with wrist flexion (volleyball spike) or deviation (like throwing a stick and getting it to spin end over end quickly...or casting a fishing rod) are pretty natural. There is a tendency for these motions to overwhelm the untwisting.

Using the untwisting as the source of faster acceleration on contact requires an understanding of the pre-stretched/pre-loaded state that must be created to enable this snappy untwisting. One problem I used to have was too much connection with the racquet and the body.

The transition in the shoulder from external rotation to internal rotation is powerful, but not fast enough to generate the right type of action at the top of the serve. I used to try to power everything from down in the shoulder all the way through contact...kind of like pulling an axe over the top to chop some wood. It was hard to get the natural untwisting that way.

Then I started to use that powerful shoulder position at the transition from external rotation to internal as a foundation for the rest of the arm. It's a very, very similar situation to the forehand stroke. If the stroke is TOO connected to the shoulder rotation, you miss out on what happens when the arm is allowed to COME THROUGH the hit.

Anyway...this morning I was hitting massive kickers where it felt like I was holding the big acceleration until I was just barely behind the ball. Because the twist/untwist motion can be executed in a compact time and space, the racquet can be brought quite close to contact and there is a feeling that you absolutely cannot miss.

I love the kick serve.

Mine is just plain nasty sometimes. Sticky. I played a short guy with a continental grip this morning. His returns looked like head-high half-volleys.

Still so much work to do...

[bottle]

Rosheem on Kick Serves

What would be wild would be if this sort of rumination produced something unlike ANYBODY ELSE, but something that a general tennis-playing populace could make use of, as well.

I for one find these ideas very beneficent, whether it's something I think I'm already doing, or something I want to try, just need a little more courage and self-confidence.

When you say, for instance, that "the transition in the shoulder from external to internal rotation is powerful, but not fast enough to generate the right type of action at the top of the serve," I realize I need to return to an experiment I was too ready to abandon.

That transition you describe whether performed low or high is the exact same action. The upper arm twists backward then forward in its socket like an axle in bearings. But if you did it low, then there's less range available up high where we want it. I agree with you and Brian Gordon and Coach Kyril completely on the need for delayed and mighty internal arm rotation up high, particularly when hitting a kick serve.

So, to return to the super-clip of Federer in the interactive forum, let's assume that he is more flexible than I and therefore can afford to give away a little of his backward arm twist just as he drives off the court.

Not I. I can't afford that. So I'm not going to point the racket tip at the left fence so much. I'll just cock the wrist whichever way I'm cocking it that day in conjunction with leg thrust. Then I'll start external rotation from the shoulder and continue it most of the way up the arm extension. The ideal pattern is pure Federer as seen in the 500-frame clip. The racket tip goes this way and that with nothing in between. But if my approximation doesn't work I'll delay external shoulder twist until after elbow throw.

About your employing of arm whip identical to that in a power forehand, here's
Chet Murphy, TENNIS FOR THINKING PLAYERS on increasing the speed of a forehand: "reverse your shoulder action (turn them counterclockwise) while your arm and racket continue to move back..."

Now Rosheem on hitting kick serve again: "The twisting happens last and ends first, within the framework of the bigger motion." I got this from your other posts and have been waiting to find a way to make it work for me. You've given a lot of new clues here. I'm especially interested in your idea that body and arm can become "too connected," that arm should do its thing but reconnect just in time to give weight to the ball.

On the court, this led me to hitting ball just with shoulder twist (and with as little the rest of a serve as possible). Then to say, "This shall be the fastest part." Then to incorporate the conviction in the longest overall and most continuous, gently accelerative service motion possible.

I really began to get some new sounds. Since we have our viewing choice in the forum between real time, in which Federer seems to pause at top of his
wind-up, and 500 fps in which he doesn't, I say go with the slo-mo with only the HINT of a pause. Continuous, long, loose with all focus on abrupt speed and full distance of the internal arm twist-- a hard island in the sea of the serve.

Your ideas are great. Your narrative is worth even more.

[rosheem]

Thanks, Bottle.

I had some real eye-opening moments in a match yesterday. I'll start a new thread so I don't dilute yours.

[bottle]

Elbow Level

In a small but significant incident in OPEN, Andre Agassi describes the early French Open final he played against Andres Gomez. According to plan, Gomez was tiring in the later sets. Not according to plan, however, the tireder he got, the more he leaned forward, producing more of a sling-shot effect in his serves.

Gomez may not have been the greatest server who ever lived, but the sling-shot idea seems congenial, and very much one of Rosheem's subjects at the thread "Grabbing the top vs. brushing up the back."

Rosheem also asserts that for hitting good kick, one can put one's entire focus on beginning internal rotation of the upper arm up high-- after most of the arm extension. Which in turn leads to notions of how to pre-load the arm to make this specialized motion go fastest.

Everyone knows by now that internal rotation from the shoulder is crucial (all the best tennis minds say so), but half the tennis players in the world probably think they can make it work through kinetic chain or acceleration-deceleration-- a bit romantic of them. That's why I like Rosheem's idea that the arm takes a solo and then rejoins overall body, which lends weight just as the fast-twisting arm sling-shots through.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ever since Jeffrey Counts introduced to universal service discussion the subject of what I call "tock," I have wondered when one should do it and how best-- with forearm, upper arm or body?

I'm referring to how racket seems to tock to the right of the body in good serves. See Braden: "Scratch the back of the person next to you," or once again watch the new clips of Federer's second serve in the interactive forum.

The part of the arm action that looks like the twisting key in the back of a primitive wind-up man-toy is at right angles to the path along which the ball will depart. The part of the racket tip action that looks like a tock to the outside comes toward rear fence, which means it's on the path along which the ball will depart.

From these parameters, for self-interested reasons, I seek a design which places greatest speed on the high, internal arm rotation over anything else. These experiments in process may succeed by letting elbow twist up a little toward right fence, then throw upward in a separate motion followed by partial arm extension. Today I then found myself adding a little HUBR (horizontal upper body rotation) to VUBR (vertical upper body rotation) in an extreme stance to ensure that racket edge is knifing at ball, i.e., I want the racket tip cocked away from ball before it starts to cut at it. Always, reader, keep in mind that length of this lever shortens by how much the arm has extended by contact.

NOTE: It now seems likely from repeated watchings of the rear view video of Federer at Post #23, interactive forum, that I was fooled by camera angle in the 500 fps clip. Foreshortening and an innocent post remarking on elbow lowness may have thrown me off. I thought Roger's elbow was lower in relation to his body than we usually see. I thought it was sliding down close to body like a Lindsay Davenport serve.

But stopping and starting the video in post #23 does show the elbow to be fairly low. Certainly, the early phase upper arm never gets all the way up to parallel to the court. Not getting up there opposes what much classical instruction teaches. (Federer does get a good toss of the elbow upward, in other words.)

[bottle]

McEnroe-influenced Serve without Looking at Video of McEnroe

1) All the way back with arm and shoulders as slowly as one likes-- shoulders get parallel to baseline.

2) Front hip out to lower straight hitting arm and help raise straight tossing arm (yes, you toss). Weight stays on back foot.

3) Shift weight and rotate hips slowly forward with front leg extending yet staying in contact with court as rear leg comes up. This complex of movement replaces the part of a conventional serve occupied by body bend. The arm stays straight at first then bends comfortably to a right angle. One obvious cue is to lift rear leg as forearm bends up.

4) VUBR (vertical upper body rotation) and rest of serve, kicking backward.

[rosheem]

Eyes on Contact Point

Bottle,

I did a quick search through your thread, but nothing turned up.

I was just curious about something.

Have you worked on keeping your eyes glued to the contact point on your serve? Were you always good at it, or did you have to work on it? Or are you not that great at it?

I am not that great at it. When I start to really focus on keeping my eyes on the contact point, my placement, consistency, and spin improve tremendously. I don't know why I don't work on it more. I need to. It amazes me that I ever even get a ball in without keeping my eyes up, but somehow I manage.

When I keep my eyes glued to the contact point, I start to become much more aware of exactly why I might have missed a serve. Usually, I miss long. The reason is that I am combining big upward racquet motion with a tendency to come through the ball too much...because I'm not looking at it and I think the mind makes the racquet come through to ensure I don't completely miss the ball.

When I keep the eyes up, I can really dial in the amount of ball I want to get. It really does fix a number of small little issues automatically.

You have put in so much work, thought, and study on the serve that I'm guessing you've tackled this one, but I was just curious to know your experiences with it.

Thanks

[bottle]

Blindfolded Serving?

Ha! The old debate was whether one should stare at a spot in the air and toss to that spot or watch the ball as it goes up, in which case one might get vertigo. I developed the latter habit quite early, and when I tried to change didn't feel comfortable, so I still do it. Or maybe I watch part way up then jump my eyes ahead to where I want to see the ball change direction or begin to fall down. But as you already know, I like upper register quadrants, which suggest more of a coming over, as the book TECHNICAL TENNIS emphasizes even on a topspin serve and as you've been discussing (interestingly). One could also take a cue from pocket-billiards (sorry) and stare at a spot on the ball, never much more than a cue's width from the center. But since it's a tennis ball, not a cue ball, maybe the difference should be more than a cue's width-- dunno. Worth an experiment. Then there are the filmed experiments of Vic Braden, who not only blindfolded his students and assistant pros but had them serve that way while bouncing on a trampoline. And most of them could do it. There was one girl named Angie whom he'd taught to twirl her elbow forward like a helicopter, so she could really fly. But I'm not being critical. I've met Vic and he's great, made me laugh among other things. But that blindfold idea has to be just the opposite of watching a ball carefully. So, as always it's whatever works-- sure to be different on different days-- and tennis is full of paradox. Just did well in a match against a new opponent and don't think I thought about watching the ball at all-- but I was always ahead. It's easy not to do stuff when you're ahead. The only thing about toss I was conscious of was that I was now letting body bend assist the tossing arm per the instruction of my post previous to this one. Maybe a cue of cues is, without overdoing it, to try one or two new focal points (as opposed to six) so as to keep things fresh yet manageable.

[bottle]

Pooch Ace Serve Turns into a Rottweiler

One simply has to navigate from relative success. I'm a guy who fools around with a lot of different ideas. Do I want to go on with this approach? Yes. But if one of the ideas suddenly starts working better than the others, I'd darn well better go with it, especially in learning good service, the most trial-and-error part of tennis.

I invented Pooch Ace as a kind of change-up but right now it's becoming my staple serve. It's easy motion easy to produce, for one thing, spinny and fast for another. The challenge is to make it as effective down the center (deuce court) and out wide (ad court) as other alternatives.

Its inception was the service chapter in TENNIS FOR THE FUTURE by Braden and Bruns. But I use a very extreme stance for all of my service experiments. That means more happens behind the back and I don't hit as far out front as Vic Braden originally advised.

Today however I re-read the TFTF service chapter for the first time in many decades, disregarding my old notes a-mouldering in the margins, and discovered what I feel are some great insights, e.g., there is a natural place where the wrist snaps most naturally, and it's possible to structure any serve with horizontal motion coming round before the arm goes up. (Not what one ordinarily sees with all the shoulder over shoulder rotation at the higher levels).

To this I add some of my own evolution of this particular stroke: a slow, slight double rotation of the knees to activate the natural palm-down loop, then horizontal upper body rotation just a little faster, and then a hearty throw of the arm upward and out which is a lot faster.

My conscious awareness probably ceases there. Which indicates, I think, the old theory that pronation is biological protection of the arm. But I'm no longer innocent: I know that real power comes from upper arm twist, not lower arm twist. But I'm not particularly aware of this happening-- in this particular serve. I am extremely aware of a loose, well-lubricated hinge-like snap of the wrist when it happens on the ball producing the best serves. My grip is not eastern backhand but continental, best for such "endorotation", to use Rosheem's term. Unless endorotation means a half-gainer into an urn or the grave.

From the science in a new book, TECHNICAL TENNIS, Lindsey and Cross, the ball stays on the strings for considerably longer than I was ever led to believe. Does that change everything? Of course.

[bottle]

Stealing from Cilic

The following serve, in imitation, doesn't work for me although I would very much like for it to.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/marin_cilic/mc_serve/mc_location/mc_location.html?MC2ndSAdWideCourtLevelRear.mov

Despite the great body tilt, I still don't obtain enough upward spin (too much restriction in the shoulder rotors). There's compensation, however, for such experiment. In one of my more individually tailored serves, in which my shoulders get parallel to the baseline, I can create better tilt early-- at toss release-- by bending the back leg till heel goes up on toes like Cilic, instead of doing the same with front leg as before.

[bottle]

Reflection

There is no generalizing about anyone's serve-- not if serve is the most individualized shot in tennis.

Serve is pretty individualized in volleyball, too. Some volleyball serves are so much better than others. And some aficionado may think he knows the reason. Ha!

[bottle]

Cilic Kick (Cilcic)

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/marin_cilic/mc_serve/mc_2nd_serve/mc_2nd_serve.html?MC2ndSDeuceCourtLevelFront.mov

The final part of the hook shot (of the elbow) gets the racket tip so far out to the right that it creates a PHENOMENON in what's coming next, which is HUSKING with both shoulders and arms that 1) brings racket edge to where it looks to cleave the ball in two. Not from directly behind and perpendicular to the net, however, but rather to the left of the ball and looking at it on a 45 rather than 90 degree line. 2) and at the same time the arm extends. I see a hatchet like movement in this HUSKING, a sudden throw of both shoulders and elbows so must speculate that this part of extension is spaghetti arm.

The arm comes so close to straight that UAT (upper arm twist) will be compact, i.e., the left edge of the racket will spin around more than the whole racket head wag around.

This is a more nuanced explanation than one usually gets: Twisting up smoothly like a hook shot out and in (without elbow yet going forward but headed straight for your temple) morphing into HUSK which takes racket snicking diagonal wise left and right up toward ball (in and out one might say this time and therefore symmetrical to the preceding out and in of the hook shot).

If this all works as projected here, the final snap-- a 50-50 mix of UAT and wrist flexion will become more concentrated and compact and aided and abetted by immediately preceding quick racket movement already in desired direction.

Wrist straightens during the HUSKING. It flexes during the UAT (completely)... it therefore might be straight at contact. Wrist flexion same as UAT sandwiches the contact before, during and after.

HUSK now appears the most crucial section of these serves. It moves elbow in. It extends the arm to almost straight. It extends the wrist to straight (but wrist won't stay straight).

The ultimate lie in tennis and in life: Be a good boy and you'll have a great serve. One has to figure some things out first.

[bottle]

"Shoulder will Dislocate" Solved

One rotorded server-- not myself-- blogged that in his failed attempt to generate sufficient upward spin he brought his upper arm closer and more vertical until it lay nestled like a security blanket against the side of his head.

This, he found, was an inefficient, even ridiculous position from which to throw. (I'm sure he was haunted by the spectre, however, of Steffan Edberg's vertical upper arm and extremely fine kick serve.)

Vic Braden, in one of his early VHS service videos demonstrated the same position. He used a plastic doll, bringing its elbow closer and closer to its head until-- POP!-- the whole arm broke loose from the rest of the body like a brittle twig.

Marin Cilic, however, does the same thing and yet his arm doesn't fall off. Why not?

Before twisting his upper arm violently, he husks both shoulders forward, a subtle yet vigorous and health-restoring move.

This husking helps stop rotation too for anyone who is an acceleration-deceleration junkie. It prepares the way for elbow to spin yet spin in one spot. Best, it appears to work, at least for today.

I've spoken about basketball (hook shot). How about skiing now? The whole serve feels like an upward flying slalom course.

[bottle]

Cilcic Toss

Most tennis thinkers agree that toss is the most important part of anyone's serve. And developing the right-left arc endemic to top tennis is particularly hard for players who grew up tossing straight.

How are they to do it? By tossing more from the side, along the baseline? That's an option. Marin or Marian Cilic achieves his rainbow trajectory another way.

If one watches all the video in TennisPlayer of Cilic tossing, one will see that his arm goes into the court up above the net. Furthermore, his wrist starts bent down, straightens as it turns counterclockwise, then bends again, upward, with all of this occurring during release (slightly before, during, and slightly afterward).

Above, Cilic's arm like that of many famous servers turns clockwise, but the ball is already gone so I don't want to concern myself overly much about this.

The big question is whether the wrist flourishes will help some average player achieve the rainbow toss more easily, and the answer is yes.

The fear factor, of course, which too many coaches are sadly eager to install, is that someone won't understand the basic concept of smooth toss from the shoulder and will flip the ball up (and never to the same place twice). But rules were made to be broken by those who know them. Even the majority of mediocre players learn to toss from the shoulder, and the wrist flourishes being suggested here are additive, not substitute.

Another interesting aspect of Cilic's toss is that from front and rear views the tossing arm seems to go up first, and the hitting arm start later but catch up and pass that tossing arm.

This interpretation however neglects the right angle between the two arms. I have concluded (painfully of course) that Cilic's toss is the classic down together, up together. But if I'm wrong or slightly wrong, great! People should fiddle around much more than they do with precisely when they toss in relation to the rest of their serve. I got that from re-reading TENNIS FOR THINKING PLAYERS by Chet Murphy.

Roughly speaking, however, Cilic is down together, up together while camera angle from front and back wreaks havoc through optical illusion.

[bottle]

Cilcic Imitation Cont'd

1 2-3

1) the toss to the top
2) elbow and front knee and left arm and the ball drop and both knees slightly shift weight toward the target (all is simultaneous)
3) the serve

I don't think this serve is as perfect as Federer's or has the amount of body rotation built into it that Sampras' does. For some of us, however, it may be do-able. I know I didn't think so as recently as last week and said so here.

One feature is the larger loop behind the back caused by briefly lowering the elbow before it hurls all the way up to top of the head.

[bottle]

An only Slightly Agonizing Re-appraisal

And now I see a completely different thing! Well, not completely. But the shift and extension has started before the elbow has drawn all the way back and down. And HUSKING-- the forcible payoff of arching one's back-- is the device that finally lifts the upper arm to fully perpendicular to the court:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/marin_cilic/mc_serve/mc_2nd_serve/mc_2nd_serve.html?MC2ndSDeuceRear1.mov