Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A New Year's Serve

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ~

    This is such a good shot. I'd recommend it to anybody. The only drawback I can see is all the new avenues it opens up.

    Also, I'm liking the following service lesson. What was weight distribution on my serve: 90-10, 10-90? Certainly not the 70-30, 30-70 recommended by Steve. From the following-- only rocking back to 50-50-- I suppose, one could eventually depart-- slightly.

    But even as a server with limited shoulder flexibility, I immediately found more control of aim and spin.

    Comment


    • Curiosities of Tennis Publishing

      Here is the list of chapters in my tennis book, A NEW YEAR'S SERVE:


      List of Chapters

      Chapter One. Goop Theory
      Chapter Two. Nadal, Federer And Other Forehands
      Chapter Three. More About Federfores
      Chapter Four. Right Braining the Federfore Over To The Backhand Side
      Chapter Five. Progressions
      Chapter Six: More Exploratory Campouts
      Chapter Seven. Sudden Reversals
      Chapter Eight. Applying the Internal Progression Idea Everywhere
      Chapter Nine. Bars and Tennis
      Chapter Ten. Bars, Sleep and Tennis, Continued
      Chapter Eleven. Mostly Backhands
      Chapter Twelve. Swingeing from the Hips
      Chapter Thirteen. Hold the Attribution
      Chapter Fourteen. David Ferrer—Highly Evolved, Minimalist yet Big Whirl Ground Strokes
      Chapter Fifteen. Using Injuries
      Chapter Sixteen. Pooch Ace Go With
      Chapter Seventeen. The Voice of Barnaby
      Chapter Eighteen. Bull Whip
      Chapter Nineteen. First Strike Capability
      Chapter Twenty. More Epistolary Dialogue, with Revelation
      Chapter Twenty-one: Wrapping Up This Discussion

      Here, the list appears as I wrote it. Strangely, though, when I previewed it in the Amazon Books conversion machine, Chapter Fourteen looked like this:
      Chapter Fourteen. David Ferrer-- Highly Evolved, Minimalist yet Big Whirl Ground Strokes

      Yes, the description of David Ferrer's ground strokes was emboldened. But I didn't do it! So who did? A Kindle Books technician in Hyderabad? David Ferrer? The conversion machine, a tennis player itself although we didn't know it? And why, when I then tried to remove the bold on ten different occasions, would the conversion machine not permit me to do that?

      Just one of the many mysteries of tennis publishing. To see the glitch in person, go to the following website and click on the cover to A NEW YEAR'S SERVE. That will take you to another cover of A NEW YEAR'S SERVE. Click on that. Which will take you to a third cover of A NEW YEAR'S SERVE with a red arrow on it, inviting you to come inside. Click on that, too, with none of this costing you a cent. Then scroll down to the List of Chapters and you will see what I'm talking about.

      Last edited by bottle; 11-26-2011, 06:24 AM.

      Comment


      • Diversifying from One's Steffi-Slice

        The Steffi-slice is an extremely interesting shot, rather German in that it employs precise and intricate mechanics for its success.

        It reminds me of convoluted, inverse sentence structure and long compound words in the German language-- phenomena characteristically imbued with so much cleverness and logic as almost to irritate.

        The backhand slice of Ken Rosewall and Trey Waltke is more straightforward in that it utilizes level shoulders. The backhand slice of Mark Phillippoussis starts out with similarly level shoulders but abandons them in the middle of the forward action for a net-leaning slope.

        This is what the Barron's slicer does as well, the Barron's slicer being the slice demonstrator in the official book of the Deutscher Tennis Bund published in 1988 as part of the Barron's Educational Series of Hauppauge, New York.

        It is my sincere belief that this unknown slicer was trying to imitate Steffi-slice but failed to note that she slopes her shoulders downward at the end of her preparation. "Simplify, simplify, simplify," said Ralph Waldo Emerson, himself the incorporator of German structure in his longer sentences, and simplification is what both the Barron's slicer and Mark Phillippoussis failed to do.

        I tried the level shoulders of Rosewall and Waltke-- another simplification-- with some success. My greatest success however had a spotty quality to it, and so I conclude that these shots require greater personal virtuosity, whereas the simple logic of Steffi's more intricate mechanics, if properly understood, is accessible to anyone and promises greater consistency.

        To get this shot, I think, we ordinary players must first become code-breakers.

        I stick with my formula of post # 885, "Quadruple dig, dig, Dad?"

        Then, once one realizes what a solid shot this is ("half block, half slice" in one description but of course that could be said of Rosewall, too), one may like me want to use it as one's staple backhand and slightly modify one's topspin so one can hit both shots from the same preparation and perhaps even with the same grip:



        I'm very struck by the Jim McLennan instruction which says that best slice (Rosewall) and best drive on the backhand side really needn't be very different from one another. A similar conclusion may be derived from the autobiography of J. Donald Budge in which he describes how his famous drive went sour just before a major final, but he restored it through realizing that he was hitting unwanted slice.

        Could these two shots of Don Budge have been so close to each other that sometimes he wasn't aware of the difference? Could Don Budge have been such a naturally unconscious player that sometimes he didn't even know whether he was hitting topspin or slice?

        The above video addresses same close similarity in the case of Steffi Graf. The first thing I notice (1:03) is, again, that she slopes downward in preparation not forward swing. Second, that racket first lowers through twisting from the elbow rather than the hand.

        Note 1: To have an easy view of this shot 30 different times, get cursor on the 1:03 spot (the number should come up as a flag), then hold it there, clicking after each sequence.

        Note 2: This sequence should drive Oscar Wegner critics nuts since Steffi doesn't start taking her racket back until the bounce.
        Last edited by bottle; 11-28-2011, 08:03 AM.

        Comment


        • ~

          Because the elbow now is pivot point as racket tip first lowers and therefore elbow doesn't rise an extra amount as in the Steffi-slice, the subsequent forward roll needs to be of pure nature, i.e., one will keep in mind the idea of simply rolling one's arm while moving the roll itself forward just a little. "Keep the elbow in," some might say. Others would never say this since the exhortation "keep the elbow in" means something different to them.

          Performing this essential of "roll" through rearrangement of elbow level down is not a good option now. Bringing elbow close in to the body like that just isn't advisable, if one wants to retain the good leverage and racket face control to outer edge of ball that a wide, circular and free, upward-rising swing can give.

          Keep the Elbow in
          What does this slippery phrase mean anyway? In the slice we've been discussing the elbow actually flies inward a bit as it flies forward and down. Think of a three-quarter overhead sling-shotting of the racket head. In the drive, by contrast, we'd prefer that the elbow stay at shake hands distance away for all of the swing until the ball.

          Recently, I acquired the SPORTS ILLUSTRATED BOOK OF TENNIS by "The Editors of Sports Illustrated," Lippincott, 1961, but supposedly prepared by William F. Talbert. Actually, it's a spin-off or bowdlerization of earlier Talbert and Old books in which Ed Vebell's drawings of Don Budge originally appeared.

          Well, here they are, recycled. Despite the inclusion of these wonderful illustrations, the book is a horrid little affair purporting to be much more than it is and carefully designed to make money but not teach anything substantial about the game.

          It cost me nothing since I found it abandoned in an empty mansion after an estate sale. Even so, I always read every horrible tennis book in my quest for one or two usable items. In SI BOOK OF TENNIS appears the statement that while hitting his famous backhand, Don Budge kept his shoulder "well down."

          I always thought Don Budge's shoulders were level. So I study the drawings once again and see how, yes, one could say that the shoulder is down.

          But how does Don Budge keep his elbow in? The elbow is shake hands but with somebody you really don't like. So we'll have to define in a different way.

          Don Budge's controlled elbow rolls so that, in the pre-contact phase of his swing, his racket tip travels faster and farther than his hand. One could say "swing the racket head" and not be wrong.

          A Down and Up Swing?
          In reconsidering Vebell, my old question asserted itself about the two drawings in which Don Budge's backhand motion is compared to Ted Williams' baseball swing.

          This is certainly not like topspin shots in which the player gets racket as low and close behind him as possible, then swings sharply upward.

          Rather, the swing is level-- until one looks harder (too hard?)-- and then one wonders from the drawings if maybe the swing doesn't go down just a little almost all the way to the ball before it then goes up just slightly in a fierce uppercut.

          Is this assumption compatible with the question of how to modify Steffi-slice for driven, topspin shots? I think so.

          Eliminating Transition in All Ground Strokes
          Here is a futuristic idea to which I've periodically returned (but always abandoned). Jim Kacian, USPTA pro, did not laugh when he discovered me messing with it one day. If one's strokes have two parts instead of three one can wait for longer and thus reduce the error-producing variables before one commits.

          The lateness of Steffi in hitting all of her ground strokes has always incurred the ire of critics who never will be number one in anything not even punditry.
          Last edited by bottle; 11-28-2011, 02:40 PM.

          Comment


          • Alternating Two-Part Shots

            Both shots employ shoulder lowering at end of backswing. Do they still employ loops? Yes but loop, which opens racket face, is performed "on the run" as kinetic element in the slightly forward and downward action.

            1) Steffi-slice. Racket pivots open from right hand as fulcrum.

            2) Drive topspin. Racket pivots open from right elbow as fulcrum. Elbow then swings forward and down more while straightening. Elbow slows and rolls ("turns the corner" while conveying the acceleration through the hand). At same time left hand counters the revolving hips. Arm accelerates on forward, upward path. Shape of swing, circular and far away from body is also a very shallow U. Shoulders resume rotation near end of followthrough.

            Try it again, starting backward motion of left hand earlier. Instead of coordinating the intricate arm work with forward hip rotation, delay hip rotation so that it seemingly has sole function of passively straightening the arm which contained only a slight bend to start.

            One can also synchronize the arm work with hips turn as on slice while going easy with left hand. (Let it simply fall down at first).

            Either of these or other closely related methods may produce more racket head acceleration or general solidity than another-- go with that (when you want more spin or solidity).

            If, in a match, this shot isn't cooking, then hit more Steffi-slice.
            Last edited by bottle; 11-29-2011, 03:28 PM.

            Comment


            • Terminology From My Book

              Federfore: An imitation Roger Federer forehand.

              Roger Featherer: English translation of Roger Federer

              Feathering in Rowing: Repeated adjustment of pitch

              Ziegenfuss: A backward forehand as hit by Valerie Ziegenfuss in the pre-women's movement, lacy dress, old collector's item book TENNIS FOR WOMEN.

              Backward Forehand: A forehand in which arm swings at the ball before the shoulders do

              Goat Foot: English translation of Ziegenfuss

              Valerie Ziegenfuss (Wikipedia): Valerie Bradshaw, nee Ziegenfuss, who was one of The Original 9 rebelling against the USTA and helping to bring about the Virginia Slims Circuit and the WTA Tour. Fourth round French Open 1972; Fourth round US Open 1969 and 1975; Bronze Medal in Doubles 1968 Mexico City Olympics partnered with Jane (“Peaches”) Bartkowicz.

              Satchel Paige: The greatest, most colorful baseball pitcher ever. Three of his infinite number of pitches: "Two-Hump Blooper," "Little Tom," and "Long Tom."

              Ferrerfore: An imitation David Ferrer forehand

              Nadal type Forehand (shortened form “Nadalian”): Self-explanatory but generating more topspin than any other forehand at the time of this writing.

              Rotorded Server: A very intelligent person who recognizes tightness of the rotor muscles in the shoulder and has successfully developed compensating adjustments in his or her serve.

              Wawrinkan Backhand: In the year 2011, John McEnroe declared the backhand of Switzerland’s number two player Stanislas Wawrinka best on the planet. Whether McEnroe’s assertion was correct, I submit that Waw’s is a great model for ordinary players.

              Emiran Backhand: An improvement on the Wawrinkan Backhand based on film of an eleven-year-old player, Emira Stafford.

              Chinetic Kine: Derisive inversion of “kinetic chain,” a term useful for bogging down anyone’s overactive mind and thereby impeding their freedom of physical movement. The term “big whirl” is more kinesthetic and works better.

              Myelin: Fatty goop one would like to wrap around one’s neuronal pathways.

              Defining terms sometimes forms sufficient essay, which in this case leads back to a first question: Why use colorful terms in tennis or anyplace else?

              1) So as not to be a bore

              2) They're easier to remember

              3) They're briefer than their descriptions, i.e., they “chunk” experience.

              Comment


              • Specialization

                Re # 889, hit backhand drive as described, down the line. Then add scapular retraction to "turning the corner" to redirect same shot crosscourt.

                One more additive for even more redirection (sharpest crosscourt) is still available, viz., borrow from Steffi-slice once again through using the same type of arm roll in which elbow drops closer to body.

                Once mastered, this particular topspin drive will employ many available sources of human strength all at once, so why not play with stance and contact point to then develop a more powerful version of the down the line shot advised in first paragraph here?

                Remember, all the usual nonsense about kinetic chain, i.e., a powerful hips to shoulders marginal sequence has been edited out through the act of lowering shoulder at end of the backswing.

                Hips alone then are the way to go. Virginia Wade demonstrated this rare but effective notion in the packed half-hour teaching video she once made on Hilton Head Island. No winding back of upper body to the max in her view. And if upper body isn't going to use its mid-belly elastic properties to the max as it goes back it won't use them to the max as it twists forward either.

                Simultaneous scapular retraction encrusted on an easy turn of the hips may then become possible.

                ________________________________________

                From LAWN TENNIS by Bill Tilden: "England will never be the advanced tennis-playing country that her colonies are, for her whole atmosphere is one of conservatism in sport."
                Last edited by bottle; 11-30-2011, 05:57 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bottle View Post
                  From LAWN TENNIS by Bill Tilden: "England will never be the advanced tennis-playing country that her colonies are, for her whole atmosphere is one of conservatism in sport."
                  Think Bill was right....
                  Stotty

                  Comment


                  • Steffi's Topspin Backhand



                    The shot of interest starts at 48 . I’m happy with my understanding of Steffi-slice but not of her backhand topspin. Here, it seems that she gets her racket open and her arm straight early (I have to see that as a sequence). The swing then is primarily a horizontal circle. Let’s say that the seven inches embracing contact is straight. She bends her arm in the followthrough. It’s a two-part shot. Backswing includes a lowering of front shoulder. That’s interesting. But Foreswing includes all the complex stuff. Using weighted racket to establish pattern helps develop feel of swinging the racket head inside out on a slight upward plane for perpendicular intersection with line of desired flight. Toward end of the pre-contact phase racket tip goes faster and farther than hand. Pretty simple, eh?

                    Backing off and viewing the whole thing again, one might ask, “When do hips turn? When do they stop or slow?” And maybe answer, “They turn early as racket tip pivots down and arm then straightens. They stop or slow once arm is straight. They resume their original speed near end of the followthrough.”

                    Okay then, “When does arm perform its roll so essential for closing racket face and other things?” Not until racket butt is close to contact.

                    One more question. “Where does racket tip reach its low point?” Some would say at the end of arm straightening but not I. First, backswing was fairly wide. And racket doesn’t come in too close to body ever in this free-wheeling design. So arm gets extended toward rear fence as well as down. And since no roll of the arm is scheduled for a while, the actual low point can happen at beginning of arm swing with racket still somewhat behind the body. Pattern then: A very slight down and up to the ball or shallow U.
                    Last edited by bottle; 11-30-2011, 02:14 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bottle View Post
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPMS8pmjLlk

                      The shot of interest starts at 48 . ...

                      One more question. “Where does racket tip reach its low point?” Some would say at the end of arm straightening but not I. First, backswing was fairly wide. And racket doesn’t come in too close to body ever in this free-wheeling design. So arm gets extended toward rear fence as well as down. And since no roll of the arm is scheduled for a while, the actual low point can happen at beginning of arm swing with racket still somewhat behind the body. Pattern then: A very slight down and up to the ball or shallow U.
                      You can see the stroke really well by repeatedly clicking on 55, just need to turn the volume down so Billie Jean's voice doesn't drive you nuts. This is a beautiful classic topspin/drive backhand. Graf used to hit it very well and a lot in practice and appeared to have total control of it, but my understanding was that she rarely used under pressure. Certainly is a perfect application of its' advantages right here.

                      I would be careful with the "u". I've always tried to get students to understand you wanted to complete the downward movement of the racket head before you really started to accelerate forward; otherwise, you generate downward momentum which you have to account/compensate for. The beauty of the "classic" 1hbh exhibited here is that as you swing the racket out to the ball, the motion just naturally unwinds into the ball almost as it would if you were simply throwing your arms apart. Right at the contact point, all the power is going in the right direction. Now at that point, you have to control that unwinding a little bit to keep that power going in the right direction for just a little longer. And that might be where you get that second movement of the hips that Bottle is referring to, but it's not so much a rotation as just a little nudge in the direction of the target. By completing that downward motion before going forward, you can hit the ball with a planar movement of the racket almost in a straight line up through the ball right on the intended path of the ball which means more momentum in the direction of the target and more effortless power. One of the prettiest examples of this was Peter Korda's backhand. Check the commentator's comments here. It's grass, but there are backhands are at 1:00 and 1:30.



                      don

                      Comment


                      • Thanks so much. I'm excited.

                        Comment


                        • When somebody gives me great information, I then usually put it into my own words. Then the first person observes my words and says, "That's nothing like what I said."

                          This happy routine nevertheless does not occur often enough.

                          When it does, one really has the opportunity to learn something.

                          Both Graf and Korda initiate the forward swing with lowering of the front shoulder or raising of the rear shoulder (take your pick).

                          This is a locking into the oncoming momentum of the ball. If you were a snake you might pull your head back a few inches which would amount to the same thing. The point is that the little movement is timed to bounce of the incoming ball (before that, after that or dead on). You're taking air (I mean aim). Rear shoulder goes up while you step.

                          My take on Don's word "planar" is that I can go almost straight at ball but there still will be outside curve in my hand's path.

                          Don's advice along with what I see in these three videos and my own ideas, combined, lead me to "keep my elbow in," viz., roll the tip around con brio between the two differentiated hip movements.

                          And scapular retraction will happen in the followthrough, sad to say. (Dammit, I always wanted to use that extra force.)

                          Time now to try all this at the court.
                          Last edited by bottle; 12-01-2011, 10:18 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Lousy One Hand Topspin Backhands

                            The live versions of these drawing links appear with colored logos down below. But I put the identifiers here first with the idea in mind of discussing them here.

                            [IMG]postcard 3.gif[/IMG]

                            [IMG]postcard 2.gif[/IMG]

                            A good one now. Swing along one's chosen circle but with this geometry, perfectly understood, and enable it through hip nudge.

                            [IMG]postcard.gif[/IMG]

                            I won't, hopefully, stop coming up with my daily theories and preferences as more and more aspects of my life try to compete. Today's: Swing in a circle but keep the elbow in so that the racket tip goes faster than the hand. Incorporate ongoing roll from low point behind the back to end of the follow-through.

                            I've done many experiments in which roll is a subspecies of the larger swing-- it can happen abruptly, in other words, somewhere along the way.

                            But I am struck by the unity and compactness of Korda's swing (see link a couple of posts-- in tennis-chiro's-- above this one). And think I see the same element in Graf's swing. The difference is that the filmed version of Graf at 55 contains more uprightness-- which is excellent for a very pure topping of the ball. To flatten out one's shot and generate more heaviness, one can swing wider and shallower like Korda at 1:00 and 1:30 of the Wimbledon videos that show HIM.

                            I'm also ready-- today-- to reject a persistent idea that a one hand topspin backhand should be circular then straight, with straightness determined by arm extension away from the body with both ends of the racket traveling at the same speed.

                            While "straight tract" remains a primary design feature as shown in the third drawing up above (I mean down below), let it be determined solely by the slight hip nudge.
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by bottle; 12-02-2011, 08:24 AM.

                            Comment


                            • "Variety is the Spice of Life."-- Tilden

                              Here they are again-- Steffi and Petr, with a third video thrown in for those of an ambidextrous nature who are tired of this whole subject of one hand drive backhands.

                              In Boco Raton, Florida and 80 per cent of the United States, ruffled feathers is a fatal disease, but in the other 20 per cent, healthy Americans can always use the slight irritation they feel to effect change in tennis or anything else.

                              In India, where there didn't appear much irritation, people like my friends Ayesha and Amar calmly observe Ayesha's slow but sure progress as she myelinates her consistency along with everything else.



                              Note the easy right-handed forehands. Note Ayesha's easy left-handed forehands, too. Note the twin tight rolls in her right-handed slice. My only question is whether she has similar left-handed slice, which would confuse her opponent even more.

                              (We may have to go with this verbal description. The film keeps getting blocked by a private sign although I was allowed to see it several times first. Maybe Amar can find a way to help me show Ayesha's variety here or in another post. For now, Ayesha does not want to go public.)

                              Here's Steffi now. Use cursor to go to 55, clicking incessantly to make the topspin pass repeat.



                              I suggested once that Steffi's hand swing is roundabout. And suggested once that her hand swing is upright. Today I'm ready to state that her hand swing is in between, containing both of these elements.

                              Here's Petr. Go to 1:00 and 1:30 and 1:53 . His swing is more roundabout.



                              And J. Donald Budge is most roundabout of all.



                              If one buys my previous idea that steady roll on any long-armed ground stroke can be a good idea, one gains an understanding of how any long-armed shot could be viewed as compact.

                              You start here (A) with racket head down behind your back. And you want your racket head to get to here (B)-- one place carefully chosen by you.

                              If you don't twist your arm, the racket head will have to travel farther to get there. If you do twist your arm you can be a real kool kat.

                              This notion will cause me to hit more Federfores and fewer Ferrerfores. My version of Ferrerfore employs more reverse action. Bent arm whips back and forward to pass whirling body, much like a serve. Mondo occurs at same time and in same way as the reversing arm.

                              In a Federfore, by contrast, arm simply gets straight in the backswing leaving only the wrist to mondo in response to all the forward body whirl. Once the mondo-forming body has rotated, creating sufficient flashlight (if racket butt can be imagined to be a flashlight), the steady roll can begin.

                              On a Ferrerfore, at least as I envision it, I don't want the manipulation of forward arm roll to interfere with the purity of bent arm whip in both directions.

                              And on a one-handed topspun backhand, one could ask, "Since you got a handle on arm roll, and Budge is at one extreme, requiring the least of said roll, what about the opposite extreme, in which arm doesn't swing roundabout at all, but merely falls and rises like a golf club cutter. This swing would be more vertical than even the most upright Steffi swing in tennis or Sam Snead swing in golf.

                              Yes, the primitive, right-angled golf club cutter goes more vertically than a golf club, which just isn't built for such extremity.

                              All you would need is a maximum of arm roll and hip nudge and a minimum of rotation of the hips since you wouldn't need them to remove slack from your arm, which would straighten in response only to gravity. And a slow ball, perfect for easy topping in this way.
                              Last edited by bottle; 12-04-2011, 06:44 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Lethal Bonk Banned from Boxing

                                Something completely different now-- or maybe not-- if we use Petr Korda for our model.

                                Petr Korda Backhand On The Run at 240 Fields Per Second Outback Champions Tournament Dallas Texas 2007




                                The first video is hard to control, the second easier. Can we see the lethal bonk in Korda's backhand? Whether we can or not, how do we go about achieving it?

                                For my slice, I use a flying grip change, which means simply pulling with left hand while relaxing fingers of the right.

                                For the bonk drive I'll hold racket still with left hand and push palm over the top, and continue this push to open racket tip all in a single motion.

                                Korda, he's bought so much time here he can change grip with a wriggle or any means he chooses, but I doubt that I'll ever have that much time.

                                Forward hip rotation simply straightens the arm, which wasn't that bent in the first place. The great arm extension that pedantic teachers always talk about is largely achieved behind the back and to the side rather than toward the target.

                                Now begins the lethal bonk. Don't hit anybody. You'll kill them!

                                Arm roll completes the inside out swing causing strings briefly to coincide with desired line of flight if you nudge a bit with your front hip before the circle of the arm swing continues to right of the target.

                                So what is the grip we achieved with change method # 2 ? Enough to get the bonking edge of the hand leading in a big way. To adjust grip more precisely, though, we'll use post deed activism. We'll put the arm and racket partly forward and sideward until the whole line is perpendicular to desired line of flight. Then we'll loosen fingers and adjust pitch to where we want it, declaring that this is our grip and memorizing it for replication.

                                The forward roll in this shot only begins at end of the lethal bonk. It is not spread out over the whole forward shot and doesn't continue much after contact but does embrace that contact.

                                Other views of model: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyGy62vWQgA

                                Best view is at 13:02, but there are other good ones at 1:53, 3:10, 9:58, 12:09 and 12:48 .
                                Last edited by bottle; 12-04-2011, 08:51 AM.

                                Comment

                                Who's Online

                                Collapse

                                There are currently 9078 users online. 9 members and 9069 guests.

                                Most users ever online was 139,261 at 09:55 PM on 08-18-2024.

                                Working...
                                X