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A New Year's Serve

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  • Originally posted by stotty View Post
    We get a reasonable view of Don Budge's thumb position here:

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...l?DBBHRear.mov
    Try to see this venerable video with new eyes? Look at how low the backswing is. And remember how Budge told people just to swing, not swipe at the ball. Then if you are like me with depression in the wrist, realize what a big change of pitch there is between straight wrist or depressed/concave wrist viewed from your eyes which are higher. With straight wrist but thumb still on a diagonal behind the shot, the ball should fly more to the right. Need of early roll of upper arm to square racket will have been done away with and the shot simplified? How many times has one tried to open oneself to Don Budge's backhand influence? Is it just because of the shot's fame or is there something substantial and usable here? One may be doing something crucial now that one wasn't before? So, is another basic imitation worth a new try?
    Last edited by bottle; 10-19-2018, 05:34 AM.

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    • The discussion one encounters in tennis teaching circles over keeping one's ta up is too much about just that, keeping ta up.

      Just a slight raise of consciousness could lead one to get ta up sooner. A ta that is up sooner can more easily stay up for longer, no?

      I've moved on from thinking that ta and ha, following the old service prescription of downtogether uptogether, go up the same distance.

      Recently I've lifted ta four feet in an arc while lifting ha two feet straight up from way back behind one, a position which creates height all on its own.

      This brought improvement to the serve, which I view as a cycle that must be perfect at all points but most important be perfect in its totality.

      I am discussing just one part of the serve right now with no obligation to discuss any other.

      Two to one ratio, it seems to me, could refer only to the distance the two arms rise.

      But how about speed ratio between them?

      Tomorrow I'll try for 2 to 1 distance ratio with 3 to 1 speed ratio.
      Last edited by bottle; 10-18-2018, 08:57 PM.

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      • Two-inch Grizzly Swipe?

        What is the length of abducted adduction of your bent elbow that produces the most forcible wet towel crack of your arm?

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        • Serve as a Sentence Written by Thomas Wolfe, the American Novelist

          Wolfe wrote long sentences that were very complex but rather comfortable and well balanced too, reflecting first rate observation and thought so that, for instance, after one good reading of LOOK HOMEWARD, ANGEL, we can never forget Eugene Gant's parents for the rest of our lives.

          Thomas Wolfe is not to be confused with Tom Wolfe, the more recent journalist-novelist, who started his essay THE KANDY-KOLORED TANGERINE FLAKE BABY with one word repeated over and over to form a paragraph suggesting a wheel in Las Vegas: "Hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia..."

          One could also think of a tennis serve as a very long and complicated sentence that one is trying to frame in a language other than one's own.

          A reasonable approach to that challenge would be to dwell on unfamiliar parts, not on what one already knows, before putting the whole thing together.

          To squawk that everybody is working on the wrong part of the serve, not on the perfect opposition of legs drive and racket drop, is ridiculous.

          For every part of the serve must be learned and mastered for the thing to work at all, and every little thing no matter where placed affects everything else.

          In regard to respective functions of ta and ha, so different now, we can review our goal of better orientation toward the sky through keeping ta up, and ask if there is any other way to achieve this goal other than vary the simultaneous speeds of the two arms.

          There is of course.

          Just pause or slow ha someplace so that ta gets to TDC sooner and therefore has more time to hold? That's one way.

          Why be more specific than that, especially if one has found some other way? One method or another plays with the ha and ta combination until drive of the legs and racket fall are in perfect conflict to perform a maximum elastic stretch.

          But to pretend that you may not have to work on other parts of the serve as well sounds like foolish romanticism, calumny. affectation!

          Sorry Rick Macci. Sorry, Peter Freeman building up to Tennis Con 2. Peter attributed the statement about "nobody working on the right part of the serve" to Rick.
          Last edited by bottle; 10-19-2018, 08:50 PM.

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          • Sway at the Top

            Try positing one's leftward lean at top of the serve. That means downtogether uptogether takes ta to pointing at highest spot in the sky, which vertical position is helped through bowing bod, and lifted ha has just bent forearm upward too.

            The toss arm ta will move a small amount more beyond TDC or top dead center or high noon just as if you were Roger Federer.

            But, will this last movement by ta consist of more independence from the shoulder? No, ta has been independent enough. Shoulder and ta get fixed together now. It's an idea, and not all ideas are bad.

            The bod will tock the ta from 12 to 11:30 . Envision yourself slightly leaning whole bod and arms to side to turn your nose and mouth upward. Or Caroline Wozniacki preparing to receive her worm.
            Last edited by bottle; 10-19-2018, 09:00 PM.

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            • How much can you dance before your partner serves before a paddy wagon arrives to take you off to the funny farm?

              I waltz, fox trot, swing, tango, do some quick quick slow, some slow slow quick quick, some slow quick quick, double-beat swing, skips, a lot of rocksteps and other changes of direction.

              Have temporarily forgotten my rumba and salsa, but what does that matter? The worse and more irregular the steps, the better so long as you can poach off of them.

              If a dance partner can't follow you, neither can a doubles opponent.

              One thing I noticed in a first evening of skating around the court is that no one tried a pass down the line or at least not one that stayed in.

              Is there a rule about any of this in tennis? I'll ask my phone now.

              "Is there a rule in tennis about too much dancing around the court before your partner serves?"

              blakesq, professional, who lives inside my phone, says, "Jumping jack motion is a hindrance, call the hindrance and take the point. Changing position is not a hindrance."

              Yes, but that applies to somebody on the other side of the net. My question still is unanswered.

              NTRPolice: "The net person must remain 'still.' That is an actual rule, but no one follows it."

              Dartagnan64 to blakesq: "Some reasons the net player has to move is: 1. keep his legs warm. 2. anticipating a lob. 3. fake poach. 4. anticipating a drop shot."

              blakesq: "No, that only applies for the server's partner. The receiver's partner is at least 3 hits away from touching a ball, so any movement during a server's toss can only be considered a distraction."
              Last edited by bottle; 10-20-2018, 02:39 PM.

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              • Pause Serve vs. Continuous Serve

                Another case of Dr. Brian Gordon's empirical knowledge having application (instant or almost instant) for some player striving to improve his serve.

                Note well that the server who sees the big improvement (suddenly he is holding serve at love whether his partner is at net where he belongs or is staying back) may have been working on his big challenge for a very, very long time.

                Note also that the crucial information the aspirant needs is apt to come from an offhand remark directed at somebody other than himself.

                We follow the Buckminster Fuller model here. Fuller used to shut his eyes and talk for an hour or three. He didn't leave much time for questions. You listened if you knew how to listen and took home what you could.

                Brian Gordon is nothing like that. He directs to people by name all the time. But he could be describing some movie he just saw and the janitor sweeping up the popcorn might overhear something that would vastly improve his serve.

                So Brian opined that palm down serving and continuous motion are closely associated, and that closer to squared palm serves are associated with a slight slow-down or pause.

                It's always been true but I can't recall anybody saying this before. (I include myself in the generality.)

                My serve now consists of three counts. 1) use bod and tossing arm to take it (ta) to skunk tail with hitting arm having just finally bent and body bowed with weight distributed on both feet. 2) use leftward lean to take head, bod and both arms slightly toward side fence. 3) serve.
                Last edited by bottle; 10-20-2018, 01:18 PM.

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                • Research Project

                  How did tennis students of Vladimir Nabokov fare in the game? Quite well I would guess.

                  https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...1%20500fps.mp4

                  Can't see how Federer could have taken any lessons from Nabokov but they both were/are smart guys.
                  Last edited by bottle; 10-21-2018, 06:15 AM.

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                  • Amos Niven Wilder, Tennis Champion

                    http://www.twildersociety.org/biogra...fe-and-family/

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                    • Roethke, Wilbur and Pound

                      It is my belief that Theodore Roethke, Richard Wilbur and Ezra Pound all were terrific tennis players although Pound was reputed to be a cut-shot artist. Roethke didn't look like a typical player, seemed a bit dumpy until he started to move according to the late Wilbur. And had been assistant to the head coach at Penn State. The second U.S. Poet Laureate Wilbur (the first was Robert Penn Warren) did look like an athlete, which is my personal observation. One of his grandchildren, former assistant attorney general of Massachusetts Gabriel O'Malley certainly revealed some athletic chops as a high school basketball standout around Boston.

                      What am I getting at in these last three posts? That one doesn't have to be an anti-intellectual to succeed in tennis although conceivably that might help. I think I'd rather go with Allen Fox and Chet Murphy both publishing books advising their tennis readerships to use more rather than less thought.
                      Last edited by bottle; 10-22-2018, 04:28 AM.

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                      • Replicate or Abdicate. Wobble in Tandem the Bearings of all Four Cartwheels.

                        It was a grand game, held at love, so why not figure it out?

                        Instead of turning oneself into a cartwheel all the time, why not take the more conservative view that one is a cart. With wheels? A cart whose loose bearings can cause it suddenly to sway to the left.

                        So, the cart proceeds toward the net. This is the part of the serve where toss occurs, thus forming a Maypole with one's straight left arm.

                        The base of the Maypole however is set neither in concrete nor in the ground but rather on one's body so that one's hips can slide underneath.

                        The knees and hitting arm love to bend just then with hips pressing toward front fence, shoulders toward rear fence. Which helps one's body weight clearly heading for the front foot to redistribute to both feet.

                        Now comes the wobble, as both arms, one straight, the other bent, hold steady while they sway slightly to the left. How? Not because of anything they themselves do. But because the whole body sways a bit to turn one's nose and mouth up to the sun.

                        Has the cart ever stopped? I think not. It's still on its journey only with all four wheels skewed left.

                        Enough of niceties! You are a cart no more but rather a human cartwheel.

                        And so, with nose, mouth and eyes still pointed up, you roll your rear shoulder over your front shoulder. Do it by 5 degrees at first, some say, 20 degrees later, but never more than 20 degrees no matter what.

                        But when you've cartwheeled the desired amount twist your shoulders upward on their tilted axis. This move will lift whatever else you are doing with your arm.

                        Note: Do not be carried away by the romantic notion that your rear leg can do all the pushing. Both legs must push upward to maintain the purity of spin of your human cartwheel just before your human twist. A ferris wheel followed by an uppercutting tilt-a-whirl?

                        P.S. I really didn't know where I picked up the part about 5 degrees and 20 degrees until I looked over some recent posts.
                        Last edited by bottle; 10-27-2018, 03:39 AM.

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                        • Disappointment

                          This worked. Then it didn't.

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                          • Rotorded Serving Reconsidered

                            Nobody is fond of this subject. The tennis teaching establishment is geared to hunky boys and girls whose favorite question is, "Which way to the beach?"

                            A teaching pro, detecting or being informed of the stiffness in your shoulder, will occasionally say, "Well there are ways of dealing with that."

                            Ah yes, for a price. First question: How much does this teaching pro geared to hunky boys and girls really know about this?

                            My solution to all things when I'm not getting much back in the way of conversation: Take on the subject yourself (myself).

                            A continuous serve I propose today, starting with palm down. Arm to get straight behind you but racket frame not getting as far back as when you opened out to square.

                            Arm now can fold and wind like Federer's, and strings can open once they pass your head. This combination of closed and opened racket creates a larger loop behind your back.

                            Rick Macci is just the latest to assert the real dynamite in a serve comes from opposition between your legs and bod going one way and the racket the other-- down.

                            But how far down?

                            Here is where I suspect a typical rotorded server makes a fatal mistake. So obsessed is he with getting racket tip low that he tries to combine this desired lowness with pro racket drop.

                            All wrong. Low point comes in the traditional "scratch your back" position so universally deemed awful.

                            Pro drop is higher, and you can go through it fast.

                            Start abduction from the old "scratch" which is really out from the bod a bit whether reaching small of your back or your butt (doubtful).

                            This position, if captured on film, will not be pretty. The racket tip will be diagonal not pointed straight down. But the huge stretch in every serve between racket going down and legs going up and some cartwheel too needs to be maximized right then and no place else, rotorded server.

                            Now you can throw the elbow sideways and up-- the good abduction we all want for purpose of passive straightening of the arm.

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                            • Left Hand in Roger's Serve Compared to Left Hand in Charlie's Serve

                              That would be the late Charlie Pasarell, who favored a big X on the left hip at the end of one's service motion with ha wrapped over ta.

                              Is there braking motion available from ta after ta has tossed in the serve of anyone? Vic Braden and Dave Smith certainly thought so.

                              But the Fed's left hand braking act, in his serves, is succinct and high enough to be a signature.

                              First, his left arm goes beyond vertical. Many servers to their detriment don't even reach vertical. Then, on left side of vertical, Fed slightly bends arm. And lifts it! Well, some brief lift occurs from what is happening down below.

                              How does this compare with the prescription that left arm drops to initiate a throw?

                              No, Fed has got left arm thrusting upward before it drops to brake which it does very high. Yes, ta finishes high, next slides off to Fed's left side for comfort and balance.

                              So what has braked? Cartwheel? But not torso twist? And what about similar and hopefully simultaneous braking from a leg kicking back, Federer's right leg, Becker's left? One way or another we want the body to chill so arm can snap faster.

                              The forward bod rotation can resume after that.

                              Note: In this first serve video, both body rotations (cartwheel and torso twist), though started in sequence conclude early enough at same moment for arm to take over before resumption of those two things. Or so it seems today.

                              https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...r%20500fps.mp4
                              Last edited by bottle; 10-26-2018, 06:18 AM.

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                              • Don Budge Backhand: 66th Try to Master with Weeks Long Attempt Each Time

                                Not complicated. "Just swing at the ball." Who's speaking? Don Budge.

                                Okay. Thumb is behind the racket. And there is a lot of arm swing. There always is a lot of arm swing in a one hand backhand although Vic Braden resisted that view. In any case you don't want your core twisting very much.

                                But hips rotation is important. Everybody agrees on that. (https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...l?DBBHRear.mov) One can see it here. But it's slow. And blended with leg extension, in fact with a smooth leap.

                                Oh oh, what if you thought hips rotation comes first, straightening arm before arm takes off?

                                You will have to shake up your head and anything that might be inside of it. For that is not what happens.

                                No, this famous stroke comes from a time when ballroom dancers like Budge and Ellsworth Vines and Mercer Beasley thought the function of the hips was smoothly to transfer weight from one leg to the other.

                                Well then, if hips rotation is that slow and late why doesn't it twist the shoulders like Stan Wawrinka?

                                Because hips can twist the body a lot or not. Example of not: A grounded ground stroke or serve in which front leg holds steady while rear knee twists into it. Or here, where everything is in the air, why don't the feet pivot fast long before end of the stroke which is the landing?

                                Because they don't, they just don't. But there is some turn of the shoulders. The shot is not a "hammer" backhand.

                                Can it be that the extending knees slow down the hips? I think so.

                                Well, how about the wrist? Straight.

                                How about the arm swing? Rising or level? Very level. The body rises. The arm swings almost level.

                                How about an inside out swing? Almost everybody would like one of those. More likely to happen with a horizontal swing out to the ball-- the racket can rise more steeply from ball I suppose.

                                How much separation? Big. Four and one-half feet? The bigger the separation the more the racket tip gets naturally around.

                                Finally, how is it that Don Budge got confused on his backhand side at Wimbledon one year over whether he was hitting topspin or slice?

                                I have no answer other than to say a level swing is close to slice and topspin both.
                                Last edited by bottle; 10-26-2018, 10:10 AM.

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